Well, I've never posted a topic before (I've only just started posting replies, for that matter) so you'll have to excuse me if this is off-topic or wrong in some way, but I just had a question about Lily and James' deaths. This is probably redundant, but Lily and James knew that it was Peter that had betrayed them right? They had switched secret-keepers and all, so I'm assuming they were aware, but I just wanted to check and make sure dear old Sirius was clear in the minds of his friends before they died. Does it say that anywhere? My books are all at home and I'm away at school, so I can't check. Thanks!

-- jamie

Honestly, I've always assumed that Lily and James did know, but then what about Dumbledore? Wouldn't he have known they changed? Up to now, I've thought Remus was the only one who didn't know. . . but wouldn't Dumbledore have done something to save Sirius?

Somewhere in Book three or four, Dumbledore himself says that he wasn't aware that Lily and James switched secret keeper. They did it last minute, I'm guessing the night of the spell, and the only people present when the spell is cast (I'm assuming) is the keeper and the one he/she is protecting, and since they didn't want anyone besides the people involved to know that peter, not sirius, was the secret keeper, then it would make sense that Dumbledore wasn't told. I'm sure he would have been told eventually...if the rat hadn't turned on them! Grr....

Hope that helped!
~ Jacy

I'm pretty sure Dumbledore didn't know - didn't it say that at the last minute Lily and James switched? As in, the final days before Voldemort came and attacked? And considering this, I'm pretty certain that if they had time to put two and two together, they knew it was Peter who was a coldhearted backstabbing son-who-never-knew-his-father.

But about Dumbledore - if he did know, couldn't his opinion still be dismissed as that of an old coot? Or maybe he didn't want to tell - a sign of the Evil!Dumbledore I stubbornly persist in waiting for.

*g*

~Nell

QUOTE

I'm pretty sure Dumbledore didn't know - didn't it say that at the last minute Lily and James switched? As in, the final days before Voldemort came and attacked?

Yeah, I think it did say that. And I'm pretty sure they knew it wasn't Sirius. Unfortunately, they were the only ones who knew (aside from the one I won't mention ). Poor Sirius.

What I'm wondering is... didn't Lily and James got blown up? If they did there would be no body right...? But Cedric got killed with the exactly same curse, yet there was a body. Can anyone explain this to me... please?

I think that was just Pentunia being ignorant, as she has a habit of doing. I believe Lily and James were found lifeless with the same horrible expressions as Cedric. In fact, I believe in the film SS they show Lily's limp arm next to Harry when Voldemort's pointing a wand at him. Now certain things in the Harry Potter films are different from the books (James being a Seeker for an annoying example) but I heard that JKR herself very closely supervisied the Lily and James's death scene because it was so significant the backstory.

As for whether or not people knew Peter was a traitor, I say no on many counts. I don't think Lily and James knew Peter was working for Voldemort and still willing to trust not only their lives but the life of their defenseless child to test Peter's true loyalties. That's pretty far fetched. Sirius sure as hell didn't know because he suspected Remus was working with the Death Eaters over Peter, that's why he nominated him instead to Lily and James (Remember the end of Book 3?)

As for anyone knowing about the boys being Animages, I had a conversation with my friend about this and she said that Lupin never told Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animage because he didn't want to disappoint the only man who was willing to trust him and give him a chance in spite of his curse. Lupin felt like this was a major betrayal of confidence to the Headmaster. I don't think Dumbledore secretly knew either because

a) he's proven on more than one occassion that he tends to not notice certain peculiarities about the people arounding them that he probably should (Lockehart being a fraud, Scabbers is really an animage, Mad-Eye Moody's not Mad-eye Moody even though they're supposed to be close friends, Quarrell having VOLDEMORT ON THE BACK OF THIS FRIGGEN HEAD!)

Dumbledore would have had to be insanely confident in Black's innocence to risk Harry's safety and considering how much was working against Black I doubt he would have taken the chance.

Well, that's just my opinion on the matter anyway.

QUOTE

didn't Lily and James got blown up?

Ahhh, this is a fun little inconsistency. Lily and James were murdered with the fourth and worst of the Unforgivable Curses, Avada Kedavra. As we have seen, the victim(s) of this curse go lifeless instantly, amidst a flash of brilliant green light. It is a very quiet, merciful death. But then...how did the Potters' house get blown to smithereens during Voldemort's attack?

Recall what Hagrid said to Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall upon bringing them the baby Harry in the first book:

"No, sir- house was almost destroyed, but I got him out all right before the Muggles started swarmin' around." (Rowling, 15)

And then Hagrid confirms the house's destruction once again, while explaining to Harry about his scar:

"That was no ordinary cut. That's what yeh get when a powerful, evil curse touches yeh- took care of yer mum an' dad an' yer house, even-" (Rowling, 55)

And then Hagrid does it again:

"Took yeh from the ruined house myself, on Dumbledore's orders." (Rowling, 56)

I think it's safe to say that the house was completely destroyed- but how? It certainly wasn't the work of Avada Kedavra. Did the house fall down during some sort of great struggle between James and Voldemort? Or did it collapse because of some unknown event that occured just after the attack? Any ideas, people?

Lily

I don't know, but I'd always thought that the house blew apart when Voldemort tried to kill Harry and it didn't work. I believe Lily and James were killed, their bodies were left nearly intact, and when the Dark Lord tried to Avada Kedavra young Harry there was a flash of green light, the house exploded and, of course, little Harry Potter got a certain lightning-shaped scar on his forehead.

Thus, I guess I'm trying to say Avada Kedavra itself doesn't cause harm or destroy bodies; but when the spell backfires, things can go horribly, horribly wrong.

Of course, it could have been a James/Voldemort struggle or another great event - I've never really thought about that.

It makes sense to me. ::shrug::

~Nell

Well said, Steel Lily. I've been thinking the exact same thing

Heaven

Ditto the two above.

My mind's eye pictures that the house was intact before the faulty AK. Besides - the amount of power within Voldemort to be released somewhere (since energy is energy and has to go SOMEWHERE) would have been enough to take care of the house. The reasoning for this, for me anyway, is that with the loss of all of his powers, Voldemort not only transfered some of his power to Harry, but also released it into the air around him. That much unharnessed energy? Would be bound to blow something up. Like a house.

And, as much as I hate to admit it, I think Oy! Angie's right. Dumbledore's not all-knowing. I like to perceive him as the man who knows what's going on...but madame Oy! Angelina did well to point out his shortcomings. Besides, it says Remus didn't tell Dumbledore, but he almost did when Sirius was loose in PoA, but he didn't want to risk the disapproval of the Headmaster. But that's been said before.

Sorry if I keep reiterating what's been reiterated already. Take care all and happy analyzing of stuff only half-mentioned in canon *grin*

everblue3

Voldemort probably used a lot of power in that curse, thus destroying the house. That also explains that the curse rebounded on him causing him when he was at the peak of his powers to suddenly become a bodyless soul.

You know, after Hagrid said that the house was destroyed I never really thought about it... I'd have to agree, it must have been something to do with the spell backfiring. Of course, we could be wrong, and it could be something Rowling wants to reveal later...

While the idea of James bring the house down in a struggle is a noble idea, I doubt it. It would have been pretty tough for Lily to get to Harry's room and try to protect Harry if the house had been falling down around them...

The Fidelius Charm, the charm that almost saved L/J's life

I do hope I spelled "Fidelius" right...Ok, so the topic. I was wondering: How exactly does the Fidelius Charm (the one that was put on the Potters when they went into hiding) work? I remember reading that Lily and James could be in front of Voldemort and he wouldn't see them. Does that mean only Voldie wouldn't see them or nobody but their secret keeper could see them?

If the latter was true, how would they go about their life? I mean, if they cut a piece of wood in half in front of someone, would that person see a saw moving without a person to move it? Then that would probably give the Potter's hiding place away.

But what if Voldemort was the only person who wasn't able to see them(they couldn't put a curse on so that all of the Death Eaters couldn't see them, because they don't know who all the Death Eaters are)? Then he could just get a spy to tell them where Lily and James were, or have some other Death Eater do the dirty deed.

There might be another possibility, but I don't know. Any help to understand this would be great!

~Kara

Interesting topic.

The Fidelius conceals a secret. We get to see one example of it in action in OotP, the secret is the location of Order headquarters, so that's probably the place to work from.

1. The secret is specific. Outside the house, the Order members are visible and vulnerable. Kreacher is kept from revealing other secrets only by his binding to obey Sirius. Therefore, how the secret is 'worded' is important, and we don't know whether the Potters themselves were concealed or just their location.

2. Unless the Secret-keeper has let you in on it, the secret is unbreakable. The Malfoys certainly know where 12 Grimmauld Place is, but haven't shown up there. The mechanism's uncertain, but it seems likely to me that other peoples' eyes slide past the hidden person/place like Muggles' eyes slide past the Leaky Cauldron. They just plain can't see where to go. We've also seen enchantments that can make a person suddenly remember an urgent appointment elsewhere, so something along those lines might play in too. Therefore, even if the DEs knew where the Potters were, it wouldn't help them any.

3. Other people let in on the secret can see the hidden person/place. That's how Voldemort got the Potters - the Secret-Keeper told him the secret, negating the 'no see 'em' effects the Fidelius had. It seems likeliest to me that the Potters' house was hidden, and friends who had been let in on the secret planned to keep them supplied with food, etc.

There are still other questions, of course. What happens if the Secret-Keeper dies, for example? But I hope this analysis has helped

The secret probably stays safe, as Sirius says that he would "rather have died than betray Lily and James." Perhaps the secret was something along the lines of:

"Lily, James and Harry Potter are hidden at 7 Godric's Hollow."

Therefore, when they are in the house Voldemort wouldn't be able to find them. BUT if the secret keeper dies than they could either move to a different location and change the charm or stay hidden in the same place.

I would believe they just had to transfer the charm to another person in order to make it active again. Just like Sirius did to make Peter the Secret-Keeper.

A couple things:

First, the charm is meant to protect a secret, like it has been stated in earlier posts. I would guess this means, like the Grimmauld Place secret, that only one person, the secret keeper, is privy to this secret and only through that person can the secret be told, I.E. Dumbledore's note with the address on it.

Secondly, I would think it works something like an unbreakable vow, where the only people present at the time of casting would have been, in the Potter's case, Lily, James and Peter (and baby Harry, of course).



I disagree with this, based on what Sirius says. He tells Harry that he convinced James and Lily to switch to Peter as their secret keeper at the last minute, meaning that Sirius never was their secret keeper. Therefore, according to what I've hypothesized eariler, he wasn't there for the actual casting of the charm and Peter therefore had to tell Sirius where the Potters were hidden.

Also, I personally think the secret was the location of their cottage in Godric's Hollow, not Lily and James themselves, cause it would be really weird to see blocks of wood magically splitting themselves. ;-P

I would also suspect that there would have been more than just the Fidelius Charm protecting them - or at least I would hope so! I would have thought that Dumbledore, Sirius, Remus, or even the Potters themselves would have cast charms around the house, or maybe even thier village, to prevent unwanted wizards from wandering through town and that Voldemort had been told about these charms by Peter so he knew he had to break through them (an easy task for a wizard with forewarning about them).