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RELATED TOPICS: Hermione's kiss was in "The Beginning" chapter, and its possible significance after JKR said Harry will be with someone who's been there from the beginning.
"And you, Harry --" -did Hermione also kiss Harry in OOTP

TOPICS ON THIS THREAD:
Merging several threads into this one.

first posts - Harry remembered Hermione's kiss a month afterwards. That means he did react to it.
=> plus discussions on the flashbacks in the books

Hermione kissed Harry because she was annoyed with the kiss he got from Fleur?

What was that "something she [Hermione] had never done before"? Is it kissing Harry on the cheek?



ORIGINAL POST CONTENT



Hey guys!

I need your input on this. I've reread GoF numerous times & one thing has always bugged me about the last chapter. I'll just quote the first few sentences since this is where the trouble is.

GoF (US Version) p716

When he looked back, even a month later, Harry found he had only scattered memories of the next few days. The recollections he did have were very painful. The worst, perhaps, was the meeting with the Diggorys that took place the following morning.

I'm sure most of y'all have noticed, but has anyone ever realized that this whole chapter is something that Harry is remembering one month later, which would be about a week before his birthday. The whole chapter is a chronological retelling of the next few days from June 25th to when he left to go back to the Dursleys.

It always bugged me that Harry seems very subdued here. Of course it's undertsandable with what he went through. The poor kid was probably on auto pilot from June 25th till the moment he began to remember, which was a month later on July 25th.

Anyway, the main reason I brough this up is because of that infamous kiss Hermione gave Harry. The fact that Harry realized that it was something she never done before a month later shows that he has thought about it. R/Hr's state that Harry never thought about it, that he never showed emotion. Why would Harry need to show emotion if he is remembering this a month later? The fact that her kiss was apart of those scattered memories shows a lot. That it stood out against all the hellish memories he has.

So, what do y'all think?????? Agreement??? Disagreement??? Any other info??????

I always thought this chapter to be from his view a loooong time later. This gave me hope that Harry would not die in book 7. Anyway... I do belive you're onto something... something very very good

Yes, that does seem really logical. I guess most shippers tend to forget that he's actually remembering (R/Hr-ers and HH-ers alike because I certainly did ), so this may bash those "he hasn't thought about it!!!!!" arguments. Good job, Sarmi!

Carla.

I understand what you are saying. The fact that Harry remembers it so clearly says something. It also means something that JKR emphasized it so much. She wouldn't have bothered emphasizing that it was the first time Hermione had done something like that it if didn't mean anything.

Ohhhhh! You're so smart! I haven't read GoF in a while, so I have forgotten some things! That makes me happy! I forgot about that little line! Good thing you guys are all very smart, because I'm certainly not... X_X I am going to reread GoF soon, though. Catch all of the sweet H/H moments and drool over Sirius... XD ::cuddle:: I also need to go read PoA again... I catch something new everytime I read it. Like, my evil RW/HG friend (who is obsessed with Remus) told me that Remus drops something everytime someone mentions Sirius' name. I never caught onto that, because I am stupid, so I want to go a find that. I love my Siri... I hope he gets his name cleared so Harry can live with him; that would be so happy! ::jumps with happiness::

~Jamie

ok, I'll credit the fact that I saw things totally differently to temporary insanity. Wait, I guess it was long term.

Sarmi that's awesome thinking! I actually always pictured things like this:

THe incident happened in may, a month later he thought back on it and then the whole train ride and kiss was actually present. Like I didn't picture that being thought about a month later, but it had been a month and then it was back to reality.

I was way wrong hey? I'm gonna really have to go re-read now!

Thanks for the food for thought!
Hugs,
Emmy (Emilia P.)

I never really thought of it that way, and I think when I find one of my two copies of GoF, I am going to reread it and see.

I always like to flip to the last page and read about the kiss Gives me fuzzies.

Far as Remus dropping things whenever someone mentions Sirius, can you blame the guy? Best friends for a long time, and then you think for 13 years that he betrayed another one of your best friends, then he escapes and you don't know WHAT'S going on. I don't know if your friend is implying slash between Sirius and Remus, Harmony, but I think it's nerves because poor Remus doesn't know what to think of Sirius anymore!

Heaven

Wow, Sarmi, that is AWESOME! I am so amazed that you were able to see something like that!!!

i never even thought of that... wow. it nearly blew my mind, that is so cool that you caught that.

I'm with Emilia P. on that one...I was always under the impression that he had been refecting back to the past month when he was on the train and then it switched back to present. And then after was when Hermione kissed Harry.

Maybe I need to check and re-read the last chapter.

I am a bit confused.

Anyway, the main reason I brough this up is because of that infamous kiss Hermione gave Harry. The fact that Harry realized that it was something she never done before a month later shows that he has thought about it. R/Hr's state that Harry never thought about it, that he never showed emotion. Why would Harry need to show emotion if he is remembering this a month later




I don't think he was thinking about that a month later. It seems to me that J.k was narrating Harry's Pov at that moment. He wasn't thinking about it. It was happening. I don't think that this is written from harry's Pov. I was reading the preceeding Train scene and that surely is not written from Harry's pov? so what would have made her suddenly change the narrative into Harry's Pov?
So i think that
Harry is not thinking about the kiss. J.K is narrating the events..

But perhaps i am throughly confused.

QUOTE

I don't think he was thinking about that a month later. It seems to me that J.k was narrating Harry's Pov at that moment. He wasn't thinking about it. It was happening. I don't think that this is written from harry's Pov. I was reading the preceeding Train scene and that surely is not written from Harry's pov? so what would have made her suddenly change the narrative into Harry's Pov? So i think that Harry is not thinking about the kiss. J.K is narrating the events..

Well, the very first sentence of that chapter stated that he thought about the next few days even a month later. Here's the exact quote again:

GoF (US Version) p716

When he looked back, even a month later, Harry found he had only scattered memories of the next few days. The recollections he did have were very painful. The worst, perhaps, was the meeting with the Diggorys that took place the following morning.

That whole chapter does go in chronological order. Yes, it does seem to switch to present time, but that's what JKR would want us to think. Am I right in that assumption?????

Anyway, it goes in chronological order, even though it feels like it goes to present time, the very first sentence of that chapter tells us that it's ALL a memory. It doesn't seem like Harry makes any comments to what he feels during that chapter which would make me suspect that it's a memory. How would he remember how he felt at a particular time? All he really remembered was that chat with the Diggory's was the most painful memory.

What Harry went through in the Thrid Task wasn't pretty. It was an eye-opener for him. The fact that he remember the days following shows that he's recovering from it. Anything out of the ordinary during that time Harry would have noticed & remembered. So, I'm thinking that it's safe to say that Hermione didn't give Ron any type of kiss.

See ya!

I get the drift of your mind. I know what you are talking about. But it may also happen that J.K switched POV'S during the chapter. A technical mistake but a very confusing one. I have reread the words and in the first few pages of the chapters, bloomsbury edition it seems that its from harry's pov but as the story moves on,
but i personally still think that only the first para of the chapter is from Harry's pov. J.k Rowling is implying that Harry is reflecting what happened. but then suddenly from the 8th line onwards the style changes? why is that?

Line 23
Harry returned to the Gryffindor tower the following evening What does this show?
if j.k had been implying that she was writing from harry's Pov then she certainly would haven't called Harry's name.


i agree that by the first few lines, specially by the mention of Diggories it seems that it is written from Pov....





however there is point which helps your cause,

Nowhere in the chapter there is an event mentioned which is not performed infront of every. Harry witnessed everything what happened in the chapter.

I am puzzled.yes

QUOTE

Line 23 Harry returned to the Gryffindor tower the following evening What does this show? if j.k had been implying that she was writing from harry's Pov then she certainly would haven't called Harry's name.

But see, that line shows the chronological event. Why would JKR say that Harry returned (past tense) the following evening? The words "following evening" gives us a clue as well that it is a memory.

JKR switch from past to present. She wants us to know that Harry is remembering, then we get emmersed into his memory like it was the present.

Oh, dear.....I do hope that I am making sense. I do see your side because that's what I've gone on for awhile. But that damn first line kept bugging me.

See ya!

He's only looking at the next few days a month later. That statment clearly cannot apply to the trip home, because he has very specific, very chronological and accurate memories of the trip. By that time, we're out of the time he's been thinking about.

I also don't think it's actually anything to do with the narration, at least not intentionally. It just shows us how upset and distressed Harry was at that time, so distressed that he wasn't forming any memories. By the time the (platonic ) kiss comes around, he's remembering more or less everything again.

However, if you want to insist that he was referring to the trip home along with everything else, it damages the H/H case. He may have been thinking about it happening, but he clearly still doesn't have any emotional response to it. So after a month of thinking about it, either he's decided he doesn't care, or it's never occured to him to care about it.

MHO.

QUOTE

He's only looking at the next few days a month later.  That statment clearly cannot apply to the trip home, because he has very specific, very chronological and accurate memories of the trip.  By that time, we're out of the time he's been thinking about.

Lol! I may be wrong, but only JKR knows for sure.

The first sentence says that he is thinking about the events a month after they happened. It said that he remembered the meeting with the Diggorys taking place the morning after the TriWizard Tournament, and since the TWT took place on the night of June 24 (HP Lexicon) the meeting with the Diggorys was the morning of June 25, then it goes on to describe the meeting, and then it says "the following evening in Gryffindor Tower." Which by most people's reckoning would put it on the evening of June 26, then we have the Trio going to class and taking the DADA time period on July 1 to visit Hagrid. It stated that "he had only scattered memories of the next few days."

So, his scattered memories start on the 25, and proceed to July 3. Everything that happened during that time was significant, or he wouldn't have remembered it a month later. Give this some thought before claiming that he should think about the kiss with more emotion to satisfy you; Harry is 14 years old, he was just tortured by a man that basically rose from the grave, he saw a classmate murdered before his very eyes. He has been traumatized to the extreme. The fact that after everything that happened to him, he can still recognize Hermione doing something she had never done before says a lot. He doesn't have to give it a lot of thought, the fact that it was a standout memory speaks volumes.

Falcon

First off, this is entirely my subjective reading of the text. I'm not pretending that I'm Right and You're Wrong, just telling you how I read it.

Yes, Harry has few memories of 'the following days'. Taken logically, that means that Harry has few memories of the rest of his life, which doesn't make much sense. Therefore, we have to look for a cutoff point, somewhere where we can say Harry begins to remember more.

For me, the most reasonable place for that cutoff is on the train home, when we're told that:

QUOTE

GoF, P629-630 UK Hardback: Harry, Ron and Hermione talked more fully and freely than they had done all week, as the train sped them southwards.  Harry felt as though Dumbledore's speech at the Leaving Feast had unblocked him, somehow. (Emphasis mine)

From this point on, Harry has the single longest cohesive memory since the statement about his few memories (seven full pages - the second longest, Dumbledore's speech, only managed about four), so it seems the logical place to say Harry is getting his memories back.

QUOTE

Give this some thought before claiming that he should think about the kiss with more emotion to satisfy you; Harry is 14 years old, he was just tortured by a man that basically rose from the grave, he saw a classmate murdered before his very eyes. He has been traumatized to the extreme. The fact that after everything that happened to him, he can still recognize Hermione doing something she had never done before says a lot.

I don't really think it says all that much. We know from his skill at casting a Patronus that Harry is completely capable of thinking happy thoughts to drive bad ones away. So he notices that Hermione did something she had never done before; what does that show? That...she'd never done it before. She'd never had reason to before. Hermione's kiss is placed on the same level as Ron clapping Harry on the back. We've seen several kisses on Harry's cheek, none of which were important, but all of which were commented upon. A kiss on the cheek, in Britain, at least, is about on the same level as clapping someone on the back. It happens quite a lot. And it means not a lot except support.

And man, did I go off on a tangent there The point is that Harry should be feeling something. He's quite capable of distracting himself from unpleasant memories with pleasant ones.

Werff, I completely understand it's your interpretation, I'm just trying to explain my interpretation a bit more here.

QUOTE

And man, did I go off on a tangent there  The point is that Harry should be feeling something.  He's quite capable of distracting himself from unpleasant memories with pleasant ones.

Yes, Harry is able to distract himself from unpleasant memories to cast a Patronus charm. However, those memories are at least 13 years old. He knows Voldemort killed his parents, but now he hears how they were killed. He deals with it & goes on.

However, the third task memories are more recent. It took him about a week to finally open up to Ron & Hermione to discuss what Voldemort did to him. I took your quote Werff, it's below.

QUOTE

GoF, P629-630 UK Hardback: Harry, Ron and Hermione talked more fully and freely than they had done all week, as the train sped them southwards.  Harry felt as though Dumbledore's speech at the Leaving Feast had unblocked him, somehow. (Emphasis mine)

Let's look at what exactly happened to him. He saw Cedric die, Wormtail totured him, he watched Wormtail cut off his arm, he saw Voldemort come back to life, Voldemort tortured him not once but at least twice with the Cruciatus Curse (sp?), then proceded to belittle & bait him with the Imperius Curse. Wait! He also had to duel Voldemort. Harry honestly thought he was going to die in the next few minutes & he was going to die standing up, not cowering behind a headstone. Then their wands met, he saw AND spoke to his parents for the VERY FIRST time. Finally, he had to escape with Voldemort & DE throwing curses at him. Don't forget his leg is still wounded from that Spider attack. He FINALLY gets back to Hogwarts.

That is A LOT for a 14 year old to take. It's not like pushing aside memories of your parents dying. Here he was totured, he going to remember the pain, and everything else that happened to him. I imagine Harry was on auto pilot for at least a few weeks. It's only when he started to remember that his healing process began.

So basically what I'm saying is...........through ALL that stuff he went through it would have been a great feat for him to even think about how he felt at that time when Hermione kissed him on the cheek. He's accepted what's happened to him, now he's got to learn to deal with it. The fact that he remembered it & that he noticed it was something she never done before says a lot in itself.

I hope I made sense.

QUOTE (Sarmi @ Jan 5 2003, 03:35 AM)

Werff, I completely understand it's your interpretation, I'm just trying to explain my interpretation a bit more here.

Check, understood. It's just so darn easy over the 'net to sound like you're stating facts when you mean to state opinions

QUOTE

Yes, Harry is able to distract himself from unpleasant memories to cast a Patronus charm.  However, those memories are at least 13 years old.  He knows Voldemort killed his parents, but now he hears how they were killed.  He deals with it & goes on.

Yes, the memories are old (twelve years, actually, but that's neither here nor there). But Harry has never dealt with them. As long as he's been old enough to even begin to understand them, he hasn't been able to remember them. All he could ever remember, very vaguely, was a flash of green light and a pain on his forehead. Later, he was just about able to remember a cold laugh. Never any more than that.

When the Dementors come for him, the memories are so fresh, so real that he actually believes they are real until he's informed otherwise. These memories may be twelve years old, but they feel like they're brand new and fresh.

So, we know that Harry can think of nice things while (effectively) listening to his parents being murdered. But he doesn't even begin to try to consider thinking about wondering about how Hermione's kiss made him feel - he just notes that it's something she'd never done before, which is a dry fact, no more. Even if his fight with Voldemort was more traumatic than his parents deaths (which I doubt...I'd put them on the same level), he should at least be able to try.

Nods. I understand both of you. Basically, the question is Whether the last chapter is based on harry's Memories or whether it has been narated by J.K.Rowling like the rest of the book(most of the book)?

I would still say that its the second part. but that's only my opinion.

Hi Werrf,
this is kind of OT but I think you got that one wrong.

QUOTE

We know from his skill at casting a Patronus that Harry is completely capable of thinking happy thoughts to drive bad ones away.

I think when you say "his skill at catsting a Patronus" you mean the Patronus Spell during the timetravell event in PoA. At least Harry thinks, that he could perform this kind of advanced Magic because he knows that he has done it before. I think that has nothing to do with his ability of thinking happy thoughts but with his lack of self confidence. He is able to perfom that Patronus because he knows there's no need to be insecure about it.
If I recall it correctly, this is the only time for Harry to perform advanced magic at all. In most other cases he was just being lucky.
Honestly, before that event, I always wondered, why anyone would think that Harry is a powerfull wizard at all?

QUOTE (Thieving Magpie @ Jan 5 2003, 06:50 PM)

I think when you say "his skill at catsting a Patronus" you mean the Patronus Spell during the timetravell event in PoA.

Actually, I mean all his Patroni - the weak ones he manages to cast during his lessons with Lupin, the one he was almost able to cast when surrounded by the dementors while trying to save Sirius, the one he cast from across the lake (though that one was based less on his ability to come up with a happy memory and more on his confidence), and the one he cast in the Triwizard maze. The point of all these? He can still think about happy things to try and drive bad memories away.

And apparently, a kiss his soulmate, the woman he is destined to marry, the one woman for him, isn't a happy thing to think about.

I knew Harry was different, but I never realised he was that weird...

Okay Werff, I can't help it. But I totally disagree with you on this.

QUOTE

Actually, I mean all his Patroni - the weak ones he manages to cast during his lessons with Lupin, the one he was almost able to cast when surrounded by the dementors while trying to save Sirius, the one he cast from across the lake (though that one was based less on his ability to come up with a happy memory and more on his confidence), and the one he cast in the Triwizard maze.  The point of all these?  He can still think about happy things to try and drive bad memories away.

First off, the ones with Lupin. The reason it was so difficult to cast those was becuase he liked hearing his parents for the first time. Remember, Harry said it himself, he half-way desired to hear his mother & father, no matter how ick it was. He was kinda happy to hear them. He had to deal that they were dead and like Dumbledore told him in his first year, it does not help to dwell on the past. He couldn't do anything about it, so he told himself to get a grip, they are dead. THAT'S how he dealt with it.

Secondly, the ones with the dementors around him, Hermione, & Sirius. Considering how they make him feel & the horrifying thoughts that are brought forth, he did fight through it to think of happier thoughts. I will admit that. BUT I will NOT admit that those memories are just as bad as the ones he has with the Third Task. His memories with the Third Task are different, they are more horrifying than hearing or seeing his parents die. Harry only know of his parents through third parties. He never really knew them. They are just names & faces to him, they are not personalities or people, he never got that chance to connect with his parents on a deeper level. Since he never did, it was easier to push those memories aside.

However, with the Thrid Task, he saw & met his parents for the very first time. Here he made a deeper connection & memory with them. He got a chance to talk to them, AND they sacrificied themselves (yet again) to save him. This memory is more fresh & hurtful along with the torture that Voldemort put him through. You cannot expect someone who went through all of that to try and feel something later on, no matter who did what.

I know I don't expect Harry to feel something out of that kiss Hermione gave him so soon after his attemtped murder, torture, and severe emotional & pyschological trauma. It's a big deal if he even noticed that it was something she never done before.

Werff, please try to put yourself in Harry's shoes, think of the worst pain you have ever had & magnify it. I don't know if you found anything in GoF funny, but I know that I didn't.

Well, I don't want to add fuel to the fire, as everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I need to add something, Werrf.

You stated:

QUOTE

And apparently, a kiss his soulmate, the woman he is destined to marry, the one woman for him, isn't a happy thing to think about.

I've been rereading PoA (and I've said this a thousand times already), and I've found out things that I missed when I first read the books, back when I was younger and much more unattentive. And one of those things is that, even though the books are from Harry's PoV, we don't always know what he feels. Take for example, from PoA chapter Nine - Grim defeat (don't know the page number):

QUOTE

At that very moment, Hermione appeared at his shoulder; she was holding her cloak over her head and was, inexplicably, beaming. "I've had an idea, Harry! Give me your glasses, quick!" He handed them to her, and as the team watched in amazement, Hermione tapped them with her wand and said, "Impervius!" "There!" she said, handing them back to Harry. "They'll repel water!" Wood looked as though he could have kissed her. "Brilliant!" he called hoarsely after her as she disappeared into the crowd. "Okay, team, let's go for it!"

I'm quite sure Harry should have felt at least grateful for what she did. Maybe he didn't thank her verbally, yes, but he should've felt SOMETHING about such a favor. The point is, Jo Rowling didn't tell us about anything he felt. So, maybe that's what happened to the kiss. I think that the fact that he remembers it is important, at the very least, but that may be because I believe in HH. It's very ambiguous. He didn't state it was BAD either, so it really can be taken either way.

I don't take that kiss as a real piece of evidence, at least not from Harry's side. What I see is that Hermione does something she hadn't done before, it may not have anything romantic in it, it could be a way to comfort him or something, but the fact is that she cares about him. Not a sign of true eternal love, yes, but I still like it.

Carla.

Hermione kissed Harry because she was annoyed with the kiss he got from Fleur?

I just had another thought about the meaning behind the kiss at the end of book four. Now, I know there has been ALOT of talk about that kiss and what it did and didnt mean.

-Some think it was just friendly "Im-happy-you're-my-friend-and-Im-glad-you're-not-dead" sort of smooch.
-Some think it is a hint at her secret feelings for "the boy who lived."
-Some think she wants to make Ron Jelous.
-Some think she doesnt know what shes thinking, and just kisses him for the hell of it.
-Some just plain dont care.
-And, of course, there are many variations on the preceeding ideas... I myself have thought about the reason many a time.

And then, something hit me like a ton of bricks... I actually gasped out loud... correct me if Im wrong, becuase I dont have my GoF here at college... but hadent Fleur kissed Harry on the cheek merely hours before?

PERHAPS.... Hermione was upset that this little French 'hussy' had smooched on her best friend that she is begininng to have feelings for. And Im almost positive that Harry enjoyed it... (I remember a quote about 'smoke coming out the ears' or something like that)... so maybe, just maybe, Hermione kissed him in a way to compete with the blonde's kiss and to make Harry think about her smooch instead of Fleurs.

Because, honestly, wouldnt you think more about the kiss that your best friend gave you then the one the pretty chica gave you??? Just a thought... let me know what you think.

By the way- This is my very first post on Portkey! Yay! Im excited!

First of all, welcome SamanthaMarie!

Strangely enough, I don't think I had ever considered this, and I've done a whole lot of thinking about this subject. You bring up a good theory.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go and ponder this new possibility.

Darkstar

Welcome!

I've never really thought about that. But yea, Fluer had just kissed Harry. This theory makes a lot of sense to me. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a possibility. That even seems like something that Hermione might do.

I'll have to go and re-read that chapter of GoF and see what I think.

~*Colleen*~

Oh, my...I never thought about it this way before...could Hermione be jealous???

Must go re-read that part of GoF right now...

Joyce

Ah! Someone else besides me thought of this... maybe I'm not crazy? Nah, I probably still am.

You follow (well, I did anyway) the logic from the "Hermione looked simply furious" line after Fleur kissed Ron and Harry. After all, if Harry's enjoying being kissed, that's going to be the focus of his attention, and is he necessarily going to notice exactly when Hermione started looking annoyed? (Picking at straws, yeah, but hey, it's fun. *shrugs* I'm personally of the opinion that Hermione being 'furious' was due to both boys, grinning like fools over the attentions of this girl she's always found irritating, but I'm open to this thread's idea too.)

So, following on the idea that maybe Hermione was annoyed by the kiss Fleur gave Harry, I might see that spurring an impulse for her to do "something she'd never done before", and emphasize the point, "hey, I'm here for you (unlike her)". And after all, her kiss would certainly be fresher in his mind than Fleur's. But that would seem to undermine the reassuring, comforting intent I'm sure she would have had behind it... because certainly she, like everyone else, is worried about him. So if countering Fleur's smooch was a motivation behind the kiss, I hope it wasn't the whole motivation.

I seem to remember some bit about JKR saying she hadn't planned for Hermione to kiss Harry, that it just came out... hmm...

Lady Aeryn has made some interesting points. I do think Hermione was irritated over both Harry and Ron's reaction to Fleur, but I don't know if that is because of any romantic notions she might have. In fact, at this point, I don't know if she really has those feelings yet. I think she finds the whole concept of Fleur and the way she uses her looks to get attention just plain annoying. (Of course, this could be me over-identifying with Hermione, but what can I say? )

I will also say that J.K. Rowling puts everything in there for a reason. This kiss may have surprised her while she was writing it, but there is no doubt that it is significant. The obvious significance is that it shows us how very traumatic the experience has been for Harry, that Hermione is moved to kiss him. It shows that she, at least, understands how close he came to dying, and it shows, if nothing else, a deepening friendship.

I am rooting for H/Hr because I think it makes sense, and it would strengthen, rather than detract from the overall story. But I'm undecided about whether the kiss is an indication of romantic feelings. I think the kids are still kids yet, and haven't really begun to analyze their feelings towards each other. Now, if a kiss happens in OOTP (between whoever), I think that will be telling.

-- babygrrl, counting down to June 21

QUOTE

"It was Hermione. But she didn't look like Hermione at all.  She had done something with her hair; it was no longer bushy but sleek and shiny, and twisted up into an elegant knot at the back of her head.  She was wearing robes made of a floaty, periwinkle-blue material, and she was holding herself differently somehow - or maybe it was merely the absence of the 20 or so books she usually had slung over her back.  She was also smiling - rather nervously, it was true - but the reduction in the size of her front teeth was more noticeable than ever; Harry couldn't understand how he hadn't spotted it before."   - GoF, p.414

this is really interesting...but i dont think hermione would think back that far AND kiss him just so that he would think about her. She is a bit more practical then that...but a possibility nevertheless

i seriously never thought about that seen like that

i was just thinking...and you may be right...who knows...or maybe you're wrong.

JKR is like God...in a sense i guess she kind of is. She is basically a god since she controls everything in the HP world. Anyways...God makes things happen for a reason unknown until something happens, and even then noone realises it because its so basic in life. JKR will put something in one book and carry it over. She will if she could literally cause a chain reaction of answers from the past of the books by the end of the book if she could.

This post got me thinking...something i havnt been doing to much these days

so maybe herm was pissed at fleur kissing both ron and harry. if that had fueled her to kiss harry, then why does she not kiss ron as well?

We can't assume that she didn't kiss Ron.
I'd rather not think about that.. my POV is that she didn't.. otherwise it woulda been shown.. but we don't know..

Lady Aeryn you're not the only who thinks that way. I also think that perhaps Hermione got pissed when Fleur kissed Harry... maybe there's reason JK made Harry go first so that he would notice Hermione's anger AFTER Ron... and make readers think, R/Hr..

maybe, hmm I enjoy grasping straws too! Lets start a club, I've already started Soap-Free H/Hr Society.. jokking

I'd like to think that all of the above reasons, Hermione's irritation @ that shallow-pretty face Fleur, her wanting attention etc.. made her kiss on the cheek.
However I also would like to think that she subconsciously focused on Harry and not Ron since there's "some" feelings that is developing. Feelings she dosn't even know about but rita Skeeter, Molly, Viktor are suspiscious of. Oh and I think generally guys are more excited of being kissed by a hot chick than their plain best friend. However Harry wasn't that enthusiastic as Ron about Fleur. Thats because he's not as taken with physical beauty but goes for smart nice girls? (Cho/Hermione?)

Max LoneWolf

im not dismissing the thought that herm kissed ron too, but if harry took the pains to notice that fleur kissed both of them, wouldnt he take the pains to notice if hermione had done the same and kissed ron as well?

wouldnt his not mentioning if herm had kissed ron, yet mentioning fleur did be a bit illogical? what would be implyed, then?
would Jo be having us think ron was not kissed because herm did not feel the same way about him as she did about harry, or would she be trying to have us think harry didnt find that herms actions were as important as fleurs actions?

where does this leave us anyhow?

now ive gone and confused myself. thanks, max.

Fleur: I actually like her. I think she is one of those girls that can have a pick of the flock when it comes to guys. So I don't think of her as a girl that gets everything ebcause of her looks - the goblet decided that she had talents to get to be the champion for her school. The other two real competeitors were good people to be chosen, so the goblet wasn't fooled into making her a champion.

Why did I just say it? I have no idea!.

Fleur's Kiss: I find something very interesting about how Hermione reacted when Fleur first got Ron's attention. In that scene, Ron comments something along the line that "they don't make them like that at hogwarts". Harry then says, they do, while looking at Cho. AND then Hermione gets her scrowl face on and tells the boys to put their eyes back in their proper sockets.

AFTER Harry's comment, she commented.

I don't think Hermione's kiss was reallly about competeing with Fleur. It really was - in my opinion - like Babygrrl said, a sign of deepening friendship

Lady Aeryn you're not the only who thinks that way. I also think that perhaps Hermione got pissed when Fleur kissed Harry...

Well, I don't really think that's what happened (though I'm certainly open to the possibility *g*)... just that the idea had occurred to me... again, I'm glad I'm not the only one whose train of thought went there, though.

so maybe herm was pissed at fleur kissing both ron and harry. if that had fueled her to kiss harry, then why does she not kiss ron as well?

Well, at least for me, when I say that I think she was probably annoyed because of both Ron and Harry, I don't mean because she's got crushes on both of them... but because her friends are yet again just being typical guys. (She does show annoyance at both of them for this 'ogling' behavior earlier, when she says "When you two have both finally put your eyes back in", or something like that.) I personally don't think she kissed Ron, not necessarily because she likes him and would feel awkward (though I admit that's certainly possible), but because I think she kissed Harry because she thought he needed it... Ron doesn't need that kind of reassurance at this point, and if she'd kissed him, IMO that would cheapen any support she'd intend to give to Harry. If Hermione does have any sort of subconscious feelings for Harry, I think they were only part of the motive for kissing him, and probably not something she was actively thinking about.

Oh well. Either way, at this point in canon the count's still H/Hr: 1, R/Hr: 0.

Thats because he's not as taken with physical beauty but goes for smart nice girls?

Well: "Harry couldn't help but notice... that she was extremely pretty," when he first sees her in PoA. However, I agree that Harry doesn't seem to go for the sparkly glam beauties like Fleur as much as many others do. And there is enough to indicate Cho is likely a "smart nice girl," unlike Fleur, who seems smart (she wouldn't be a TriWizard champ if she was dumb), but not exceptionally nice, at least not until Harry shows he's not so 'inferior' as she thought. But evidently being 'smart and nice' isn't enough to get Harry to notice Hermione yet. Hmm. There's a Buffy quote that kind of reminds me of this scenario:

Xander: "Smart girls are so sexy."
Willow: "Why couldn't you realize that in high school?"

*coughs in Hermione's direction and nudges Harry*
Harry (blankly): What? It's just Hermione...
*LA sighs*

AFTER Harry's comment, she commented.

Hmmm... interesting observation! *runs to look at her copy of GoF...*

Wow guys,
I didnt realize that my thought would trigger so much attention. I too, dont think that jelousy was the main motive behind the kiss. Im more for the whole friendship concept... after all the best couples start out as friends.
But, it was just a thought that snaked into my head one night. So I thought Id post it and see what everyone else had to say. And, boy oh boy, did you have to say alot! Yay! I feel like my opinions count! (You have to realize that I was introduced to HP forums through death-curse.com, which is WAY too r/hr, and the people there were so mean to me! I had 11 year olds telling me off... it was an odd sensation. Lol.)
So, anyways, thanks for posting. And keep the comments rolling!
-SamanthaMarie

i believe that a read this some where here before and now seems like a good time to bring it back up again. but the last chapter of GOF sounded more like harry remembering all this happening after the fact. and that he remembered Hermione kissing him left an important fact in his mind. check it out your selves first page last chapter of GOF.

That gives me an idea:
You know how the fifth book starts? How Harry is lying in the flower bed? He may be reflecting on the events that has happened from 4th year- including Hermione's kiss. Besides- a kiss is not exactly something you'd forget wouldn't you?

yes and that last chapter sounded like he was remembering all this after the fact, so yes he very well could be.

Hmmm....
I never thought about that before, how very insightful! Oooo... this makes me crave book 5 even more now! Thanks alot... lol... just joking. Methinks that I will be doing some serious contemplating over this theory in the comming days.

However I'd like to think that, that seems unlikely. Yes, a kiss is something to think about.. but surely he must have had other things to do. I figure Petunia's just making him toil, and he's probably being bitched around by the Dursleys.

But I'm not JKR, so hell.

Suzaku
.. who is amused by . everywhere!

You know....I thought I was the only one that thought of that. Oh well,mabye the kiss was a little*hint*.Or it could be to make Harry forget about the kiss that Fleur gave him.Well....if it was only to make Harry forget about it,she would of maybe given Ron a kiss too.I'm a H/Hr shipper so I'm hoping that they get together some time in the books.After all,the sooner the better.

I agree completely! by the way, hullo Hermione Granger!

~Woodsorrel (who also ships H/Hr)

So, Hermione Granger, you're new here, right?

~Woodsorrel

SoulShine, you did see this somewhere. I cna't recall where, either, but you are right. We discused this in one thread, and it is in GoF. It says something like, Months later he thought about the next few days, and they were a blur. The whole chapter is what he remembers of the time after the third task. And he remembered talking to the Digory family, giving away the money, Fleur and Herm's kiss, and leaving. Anything else? Well, the fact that he remembered Herm's kiss is important! If he had taken it to mean something, he remembered it. If it was no big deal, JK probably wouldn't have mentioned that it was something she had NEVER DONE BEFORE. Now, if she wouldn't ahve emphasized that it never happened before, the kiss might not have recieved that much attention. But she added that. To get attention. I probably would have thought about later, noticed some long time later, hey she never kissed then till now. But nope. JKR MAKES you see it. And what an attention getter, let me tell you! Well, I think I have said enough on that. Actually, I don't, but I have been sitting in front of the comp for the last ten hours.... X_X

~Jamie

Err... I think I just saw qhat your guys might be onto. Well properly this time. . If that chapter did indeed was from a part of Harry's mind a few months later - than he might have had a talk with sweet mione. And in that she might have had told Harry that was the first time she ever kissed a boy. That means they might have had that "just friends" talks with Mione later. *sigh* It's good and bad

It might not mean that. He might have reflected on that day a while later, and not have talked to Hermione.

I am eager for OotP, though. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT ALBUS SHOULD HAVE TOLD HIM!! Why does JKR tease us so? I want to go cry. And I want my Siri! Ohh, do you guys think he will be like, un-arrested? Like, his name cleared?! Ohhh, I hope so! ::hopes hopes hopes:: Then there will be more Sirius time because he won't have to be running. And he can be like, So, Harry, have a girlfriend? And Harry can say, No, but I am sooo in live with my best friend Hermione, but I am too dense to notice.