Who said that Harry DOES not find Hermione pretty in GOF? No, I'm not talking about his jaw dropping when he finally recognises who she is, but just before that:

Page 359, GOF, Bloomsbury, Paperback, Chapter: The Yule Ball



1) The girl with Krum.
2) The girl with blue robes
3) The girl that Harry conveniently didn't recognize

Who else can she be, but Hermione? Here's confirmation:



Isn't it amazing that JKR blatantly describes all and sundry - Cho, Parvati, Lily - as being 'pretty' but has to take a cloak and dagger approach for Hermione! Why?

Now do people understand why it's called 'subtle subtext'?

Idiot!
Stupid!
Idiot!
Stupid!

That is what I am currently saying to myself right now, well I certaintly never looked at it that way before, pretty(lol) sure others have.

Idiot!
Stupid!
Idiot!
Stupid!

Figures I would have noticed this sooner, or somebody post this sooner.

Oh My God how could I so damn stupid ( hits her head on desk) Good finding but you never hear Hermione's reactions on how Harry looks (hope that make sence). All I have to say is this take that R/Hr fans Harry think she pretty.

Sondra

I subconciously picked up on this one! She does do a pretty good job of cloaking this though doesn't she?

Love Millie

This is a very good point.

these are the things I've been trying to point out to my R/Hr friends know swear up and down they'll be right in the end. they only see the surface of the story and not the current underneath to is making it flow. Oh well . . .

great find there.

Victor

I've actually debated this point with a R/Hr before.
Their (or at least that one's) take on the whole thing is that Harry doesn't find Hermione pretty, because he didn't recognize her. In other words, she dolled herself up so much she was unrecognizable, and therefore un-Hermione like.

Which means that Harry doesn't think the *real* Hermione pretty.

I disagree with that, of course, and I think thereader's take on it is more to the point, but what are you going to do?

I think the whole argument is moot now anyway, what with Harry saying "I don't think you're ugly" After all, what's left?

Great spot though!

Hmm, that is indeed a good quote, but like a lot of R/Hr Shippers pointed out before, it's a bit sad that Harry only recognizes her beauty, when she is styled for the Yule ball.
But I have to admit, when I turned 14 a long time ago, I happened to notice quite a few pretty girls in my class that I hadn't noticed before, although they had been in the same class with me for 4 years now.
Well, let's say, we boys, tend to need some time in order to differentiate between real beauty and only a beauty shell.

Good spotting, thereader!

Yes, I heard the same point. I asked an R/H shipper to conclusively prove to me that Cho Chang and Parvati Patil are not dolled up 24/7 as Harry wouldn't know if someone used make-up or not unless they told him about it and guess what? They could not conclusively prove it and started talking about Parvati at 11!

In addition, I asked them to prove from canon that Ron finds Hermione better looking than Fleur - and guess what? They couldn't!

Anyway, the point is moot! Why? Harry learned one very important thing in OOTP - just because a girl is pretty, doesn't mean that she'll be nice.

I don't think he finds her pretty just because she's "dolled herself up". The thing is, I'm sure that Harry - and Ron - had never thought abput Hermione as a girl before. He met her when they were 11, at that age he didn't have any interests in girls. Hermione is one of them, and that's why Harry had never considered before that she is not only Hermione, the friends, but a girl too. The whole change of look thing makes him realize that, because he sees her like he had never before.

Besides, I don't understand why some people think - or thought before this - that Harry found Hermione ugly. In the books, he had never thought about that.

Harry also finds Hermione distracting.

This is from OoP chapter seventeen:
"What with the regular sounds of retching, cheering, and Fred and George taking advance orders from the crowd, Harry was finding it exceptionally difficult to focus on the correct method for Strengthening Solutions. Hermione was not helping matters; the cheers and sound of vomit hitting the bottom of Fred and George's bucket were punctuated by loud and disapproving sniffs that Harry found, if anything, more distracting."

What's interesting here, is that with all the loud noises, Hermione's sniffs were more distracting than anything else to Harry.

Looks like he's pretty tuned in to her doesn't it?

Between that fact, and the fact that Hermione's voice is what Harry's conscious sounds like, I would say that Harry knows looks aren't everything already Even without the Cho conformation of the fact.

that is very good spotting...(the reader). I always thought....that Harry always think Hermione is pretty, but I don't think..Harry want to admit...that "pretty girl" was Hermione. He seem her as 'best friend" he doesn't want her or make her feel like his "girlfriend" kind of stuff. I don't know how to explain...more then that. Guess he doesn't want to "Fall" for her..just because she is 'PRETTY" I hope I am making sense.

I am mad or dissappointed..that Hermione "doll up" for Krum...and not for Harry. Why do she have to "dress up" for someone she doesn't like. I wish..it was Harry...though.

Well, I am stupid,lol. Don't know why I didn't pick that up before. Good spotting!

For me, Harry didn't think Hermione was pretty because she "dolled herself up".
The fact that his jaw dropped doesn't mean he didn't imagine Hermione could be pretty.

Hermione hadn't told him the name of her date. Harry is probably just surprised she's with Krum.

By the way, Innermurk, you've got a good point with Hermione's sniffs.

Vincent

*hits self in head for being so stupid* Wow......great spotting!

Can someone please give me link to the comic strip?
Much appreciated!


Marshmallow

great spotting therreader! i always knew r/hers were wrong when they said that........................the link is here

I can't believe I didn't pick up on that before! *slaps hand*
Thanks for pointing that out thereader
And here I was thinking that whenever I read through the books, I tried to pick up on every little hint of H/Hr

And you're right innermurk
I wouldn't have picked up on that either!

BTW - Thanks for the link LilaBelle *grins*

what can i say.... i totally agree with your post.... I think Harry doesn't think Hermione isn't pretty.... I also think that Hermione is becoming a major influence in Harry..... she's not only the voice of reason for Harry.... she is also someone that Harry trust.....and i'm talking the type of trust that true friends have.... Harry's certain Hermione has his back covered and I think Hermione does feel the same with regards to Harry.... of course he also shares a great deal of trust for Ron.... but it's Hermione who have never failed him yet.....

Okay, I'm feeling really stupid right now, but for some reason I don't understand what this topic is saying. Everyone else seems to get it which is making me feel really clueless. Maybe it's because I told myself that I'd go to bed an hour ago and I still haven't. My brain is barely functioning. Well, but to add to what some of the people were saying, I think that part in the book was the first time Harry and Ron actually began to see Hermione as an actuall girl. Remember that part in the book where Ron was like "Neville's right, Hermione, you are a girl" or something like that. They saw her as a friend, not necessarily a girl, that's why Harry was surprised to see her all "dolled up" and pretty and stuff. After that, he might begin to see Hermione as a girl on a daily basis, and might get some ideas and stuff. I'm such a hopeless romantic.

*snorts*

Yay! Another reason why I should love Harry and Hermione. Yay!

Nice spotting scotty. Wooo...

Excitement.

This is the part where I should probably shut up now.

Not!

Mwahaha...

Ok.. I'll shut up.

Stop looking at me like that!

You think I'm crazy don't you?

Yeah, Harry and Hermione is great mate...

...

BEANS!

Jess~

i actually had seen that one in a fifth year fic long ago but it stills remain a valid point. It forces Harry to actually notice her as a girl. The "You're no ugly" scene in OotP reinforces this acessment. The slack jaw may come from the attire of everyday in school. The uniform is consisting of robes, loose fitting robes that hide what we could call 'forming curves' and thus she surprises Harry with her physicfal appearance.

As for the voice of his conscience, I saw the strip and found it hilarious. I believe there's some fan-art from the author of this site on portkey in the same style but I'm not 100% sure.

As for the dolly look, who said she was looking like a doll. every woman, at one time or another, wears make-up. Harry didn't recognise her because to him she was, and mind the WAS one of the guys. The scene is there to force him to realise she's a girl.

*looks around sheepishly* I actually noticed this one before. It took me about 2 readings of GoF to discover it. At that time I wasn't really fanatical about shipping as I am now.

Yep, the only reason Harry never really noticed that Hermione could be pretty is that he in a way forgot she was a girl. Like someone said, the loose fitting robes and stuff hide any "feminine" clues, and since he's so close to her, he almost doesn't think about her as being a female, just as a friend.

merged with related topic - PK mods

Hi!

I was reading some great essay's on PA about Ron's crush as a red herring and one question poped into my head.


One of the arguments against Ron's crush is the fact that Ron has his epiphany about Hermione being a girl in this scene:


I agree that this is Ron's wake up to the fact that Hermione is a girl. But this made me wondering when was Harry's epiphany? Was there any? Did Harry need a one? Maybe he was aware that Hermione is a girl?

If this topic has beeen discused before can you post links, please? I would really like to read about it.


I was wondering if this is the moment Harry realizes the obvious:

Emphasis has been made by JKR. Why did she do this? I heard somewhere that emphasis means that JKR is trying to say "this is important", if so why this is important? Why Harry was distracted? And why this is a startling news?


So, what do you think about this? Can you help me find an answer to the question when did Harry have his epiphany about Hemrione being a girl?


Cheers
Mycha *who is trying to wait patiently for some answers*

One usually thinks it happened at the Yule Ball when Harry realized the pretty girl in blue was Hermione and his jaw dropped..

However I think it came much earlier when he and Ron had their fight. Though he doesn't come out and say it.. Harry realizes that having Hermione for a friend is different than Ron. page 316 GoF

The total connection isn't there yet, with Ron doing guy things verses Hermione's more intellectual pursuits. But I think it is the beginning of his epithany at the Yule Ball. Hermione is indeed a pretty girl..

I think Harry has always know Hermione was a girl, but was distracted from it by Cho. I also think Harry thought Hermione would go with him or Ron.

I think . . . oh I don't care. I love this thread! *super sigh*

Harry has always known Hermione is a girl. He does treat her differently than he does Ron and Neville and Dean and the rest because she doesn't have the strength they do, Sports do not thrill her, and I am sure that if you asked him to give a list of Hermione's likes and dislikes, it would be long. She does grab him when she is scared, something Ron would never do. As Harry gets older, he starts to not mind it as much and eventually starts to grab her first. Hermione started right away with the boy who longed for simple human contact, so now they seem to be very free with physical touch, which maybe why it took Harry until the Yule Ball to realize that Hermione is a pretty girl. They have touched, grabbed, held and hugged each other for five years, now. Simple contact with Hermione is not some dark mystery. I do not think the butterfies will kick in until touch is suddenly not so simple anymore.

Hi!

Thank you guys for your answers. I really appreciate them.

Personally I think that Harry indeed was aware from the beginning that Hermione is a girl. Yet maybe there was an epiphany. Hm, maybe he had it at the same time as Ron but it is overshadowed by Ron's?

Anyway, thanks for replaying.

Maybe someone else would like to share his/her opinion?

Cheers
Mycha

Hi everyone! I agree that Harry has realized Hermione is a girl all along. He just has a lot on his mind to have free time to ponder about it.

I think the reason there is an epiphany for Ron is somewhat complicated.

1) Ron does know she's a girl, it's just not something he had to think about before because he was NEVER interested in her that way before.

2) He needed a date. Hermione is one of his best friends. And you can't argue the fact that she's not popular or considered unattractive by other students. So he, of course, assumed she was still available. And he was right, except for the foreign student factor. Notice, however, he didn't ask Hermione to go with him, but with one of them, referring to him and Harry. He's still not interested in her. She's merely a way to make one of them seem less foolish at the Yule Ball.

3) He's shallow. Let's face it; if he knew Hermione was going to look that pretty at the Ball, he would have asker her long before. Once again, he's NOT interested in her; he wants the status symbol of having a pretty girl as a date. Ironically enough, he gets that (Padma). (Note: this is not an indictment of Ron. Pretty much all 14 year old boys are like this.)

4) Hermione seems to be (cringes, waiting for the blows to fall) an average looking girl who makes herself pretty when she goes through the effort. Thus, Ron would never have noticed her "as a girl" before. Plus, I think fixing her teeth probably moved her up to pretty (Note: I love Hermione. If she was real, I'd be all over that. I picture her as the kind of girl most people think of as plain, but I would see as beautiful. Everyone knows someone like that. So, please don't kill me )

5) I think Ron's immense dislike of Hermione prior to the Troll scene in PS/SS erased her from being anything but that irritating nag.

Herons may say "Aha! Then why did he ignore Padma and obsess over Hermione, if all he wanted was a pretty girl?" To which I reply: He got exactly what he wanted. What did you think he was going to do? He has no interest in Padma. He treated her exactly like I said, as a status symbol. Pretty girl? Check. At the Ball? Check. Ok, onto other things now. And as to why he' so obsessed with Hermione at the Ball? Because she did better than him. And we're not talking schoolwork here, but an area he really thought she'd be hopeless. But she got her own date (Harry didn't have to do it for her) and it was a world famous Quidditch player and School Champion to boot. ######, people, he's jealous again. And Ron, being Ron, deals with it the only way he knows how: by lashing out. JKR's given us plently of hints about that, i.e. the ears turning red, the jealously, the short fuse.

And this leads up to my last point: How can anyone in their right mind construe the post-Ball screaming match as shippy? Ron is being jealous and mean, not showing "tension" (god, I hate that word. Herons would have you believe ambiguous tension means more than a history of physical contact, shared moments and silent understanding, and emotional support). Hermione is hurt and angry because he's insulted her by saying she's not pretty or worthy of having a date (Krum only going out with her for her brains or to sabotage Harry. ANYONE would yell at Ron for that kind of treatment). And, to put one last thing straight, Hermione is not implying that he should have asked her to the Ball or that she would even have said yes! She's saying, "Don't be a thoughtless git!"

Sorry, that went a bit But it was a natural progession

Hi, peeps!

Throwing my two cents in...

There's a discussion thread somewhere here (sorry, I forgot where it is! ) but as I recall, it touched rather briefly on the matter of whether Harry and Ron "knew" that Hermione was a girl before the Yule Ball.

My opinion at the time (and it hasn't changed since ) was that Harry knew Hermione is a girl, and has always treated her as a girl (deferential, polite, protective, etc.) while Ron's treatment of Hermione borders on the abusive and as 'one of the boys.'

The difference lies in their upbringing--and schooling.

We know that Harry went to school prior to Hogwarts and, while it may not have been said in canon, it is a safe assumption to say that it was a public, probably co-educational school... and, while Harry may have been an isolated, 'put-upon' kid because of Dudley's bullying, we can make an assumption that he's had at least *some* interaction with girls.

Granted, he may not have thought of girls from the hormonal, shippy perspective but at least, he knows enough about them to know that they're 'different' from boys.

Recall how quickly he picked up on the possibility that Hermione may not have known about the troll in first year, after he and Ron had overheard Parvati and Lavender talking about Hermione crying in the girl's toilet after their Charms classes.

On the other hand, JKR has said that Ron and Ginny had been 'home schooled' by Molly until they went off to Hogwarts... and it doesn't take a major leap of imagination to think that all the Weasley children were home schooled before Hogwarts--a disproportionate six males to one girl, and the last being the youngest, at that.

And, while the Weasleys may not have been the only wizarding children in Ottery St. Catchpole, chances are high that they also did not have much interaction with other children... after all, Ron does not seem to remember Luna Lovegood, and Ginny knows her only because they are in the same year at Hogwarts.

In any case, in a household with a disproportionate number of boys, chances are that Ginny would have been treated as more 'boy' than girl. True, she does show signs of 'girly' behavior (especially with her crush on The-Boy-Who-Lived) but also consider her other, rather 'masculine' traits (practicing on the boys' broomsticks, showing more power and capability with her Bat-Boogey Hex, etc.)

Ron, therefore, would have had no idea on how to handle a girl--or woman (except for Molly), something which (again) can be seen in the Ron and Hermione interactions during the early years--constantly bickering about almost everything until fourth year and Ron's 'epiphany.'

One thing to think about: there was no R/Hr until fourth year and Ron's epiphany, followed soon after by the Yule Brawl and Ron's 'jealous' actuations (which have been dissected here and in the PA forums).

Another thing to think about... Ron's 'epiphany' in fourth year was that Hermione was a girl. Harry's epiphany, on the other hand, was that Hermione was pretty, beautiful, different, delicious, snoggable...

I'm beginning to think that this may well be one of JKR's most brilliant pieces of misdirection or obfustication (sp?) so far. It is RON who 'realizes' that Hermione is a girl--and people automatically assume that Harry made the same realization a moment later.

Keep in mind, however, that Harry already knew what a 'girl' (in the gender-based, hormonally driven, snoggy-shaggy kind of way) was:



In other words, Harry knew that Hermione is a girl (and has always treated her as one) but he never really thought of her as a 'girly-girl' until the Yule Ball when... "His eyes fell instead on the girl next to Krum. His jaw dropped.

"It was Hermione."

Ron, on the other hand, never had a clue until his 'epiphany' in fourth year--and even then, I think he still thinks of Hermione in the same way that he sees Ginny: as a sister but not someone that he would date.

More importantly, Ron's actuations before, during and especially after the Yule Ball has subtly shifted attention away from Harry's epiphany of Hermione as a 'pretty girl' towards Ron... and has seemingly blinded a lot of people towards thinking Ron/Hermione when the whole thing is, essentially, another step or building block of the H/Hr relationship.

Thank you for letting me ramble.

gil

Hi!

Thank you for answering!

Chance, I agree with everything you said. In fact personally I think that one of the most shocking things in HBP might be a fact that Ron DOES'T have a crush on Hemrione and NEVER had. (well, maybe not so shocking for us H/Hr shippers)... And that's why some fans won't be happy about HBP as JKR had said, I think, on her website.

Thank you for your explanation about Ron it did help. It's always nice to know why some people acts this way or another. (well it's nice to me )


romulus lupin, I have never thought about Ron's and Harry's their upbringing and schooling. Yep, this is very importanat especially for the way they think.
So Harry knew from the beginning Harmione is a girl. Well, I felt he did before, and now I know it for sure.

Ah, and on the Yule Ball he realised Hermione's

me likes!!! Hope he will act on this realisation soon...

And you gave me a proof to the theory that Ron's Christmas gift for Hermione in OotP wasn't shippy at all

Ron knows now that Hermione is a girl (even a grily-girl) so he buys her a girly gift (or what he thinks is a girly gift) And that's why he wasn't affected by Hermione's reaction. It just wasn't very important to him.

Deffinately there is NO R/Hr in HP, IMHO.

Thank you again for your answering. I'm still willing to read more.

Cheers
Mycha

Hi there.
All I have to say is that to me Harry never needed an epiphany, it just felt that he always knew that she was one... and in OotP especially. As for Ron, I have to agree with romulus lupin the differing schooling history could account for much concerning his treatment of her.
Okay, that's all I have I guess.
Bye

I hate to say this or bash anyone under this age but most of the R/Hr's I know are under 25. I talked with someone at the last book party for OOTP who hadn't read GOF yet,and she automatically came to the conclusion that Ron and Hermione liked each other. If you guys have noticed,most of the essays written about H/Hr's relationship and how it has evolved over the last five books,have been written by fans over 18,who see past the "supposed crush" Ron has on Hermione.The R/Hr's think their fights are cute and just an excuse to express how they feel about each other,whereas H/Hr's see their fights as not stable ground for a long term relationship. I agree with the fact that Harry has always known she was a girl. Take a look at the quote in the Unexpected Task chapter and look no further. Hermione clearly states that just because it took Ron a long time to notice she was a girl,didn't mean everybody else hadn't. Heck,apparently Neville thought she was worthy of being a date for the ball or else he would not have asked her. So I think the R/Hr's are going to be in for a big surprise in a couple of weeks when we all read the book and it doesn't turn out the way they want it too.

I remember when I was their age(which was not too long ago).

When you have a crush on a girl you just don't notice any other girl as an option.
It's very wierd thinking about it now, but now that I do it really was like that. Their was no other option, it HAD to be that one girl. Of course I noticed other girls but I never really thought about them the same way.

I think it all changed around the age of 16 for me, and my choices didn't seem as thin as they were.

Oh and with Ron, he didn't really have a crush on Fluer. He just thought she was beautifull like every other boy at Hogwarts

Wow. It's been a long time since I posted. I like this thread, so I'll toss in my two cents.

I'm also of the opinion that Harry didn't need an epiphany that Hermione is a girl as Ron did. He did need a reminder though, and that came at the Yule Ball where he noticed in a big way. No other female on the scene, including his crush Cho, got the effusive descriptions (in Harry's view) that Hermione did. Not only was she pretty, she made his jaw drop! I also think it's likely that, at some point, Harry told her how nice she looked, because
I just don't see the subject of Hermione's hair coming up in casual conversation. It doesn't seem like a natural subject unless Harry said something along the lines of "you looked really pretty at the ball" or "I liked the way you fixed your hair".

Although Harry is crushing on Cho throughout OoTP, he spends an awful lot of time focused on Hermione. There seems to be some unrecognized need for him to know where she is "three rows to his right and four seats ahead". He also seeks her physical presence much more often than he ever has previously. I think Harry is on the verge of a very different kind of epiphany. Hermione is a girl. Harry knows and has always known this. I think he may just be on the verge of realizing that Hermione is a woman which has very different implications. At the end of OoTP, Harry, for the first time, led the Dursleys out of Kings Cross. I think Harry has realized that he is 'nearing manhood' , if not already there. It's not a great stretch for him to realize that his best, most loyal friend is a pretty young woman who may just be his soulmate.

I highly doubt Harry needed that epiphany more than he needed the trusty Yule Ball reminder. I agree with mostly everyone else here that he already knew she was a girl. I mean, we have to admit, although he maybe a bit dim sometimes, Harry is observant when he wants to be. He did noticed that Hermione looked different, only to come up with the conclusion that Hermione had shrunk her teeth (wish i could do that ). Let's face it, no one would really notice something like that and point it out as Harry did unless you spent quite some time with that person (or more specifically paid attention to each and every lovable detail on someone's face, and in this situation it would have happened to be Hermione's smile )

So therefore, Harry didn't need to have an epiphany-- he already knew.

I like how this thread was all wasted, and the brilliant and more well-thought out theories were utterly untrue. JKR isn't my favorite person right now.

Even in this scene, Ron is merely seeing Hermione as a means to an end, namely to avoid being embarrassed at the ball. Also note that he uses repeatedly the word 'we' meaning that he would be content if Hermione went with Harry as that would still get one of them the date that they need.

There's an editorial I found with some moments of H/Hr in OOTF:
http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madamp...-player01.shtml. Some people might think it over-analyzing but I think it's true....