Read ECR Potter's essayish "On James - OOTP rant" here ~gal-texter/Pen May2008


I'd be very interested in what you guys think happened. From chapter :: Snape's Worst Memory , we find out that James at 15 was a git. He did pick on Snape. And he promised to not ever do so if Lily went out with him. She refused.

How do you think this changed. Hmm... Just for the fun of it, if you want to answer in ficlet form --- you are more than welcome

Well, remember that James saved Snape's life in year 6 and then dates Lily in year 7! Something must have gotten him to change sometime between years 5 and 6 (i.e. between the taunting and between saving Snape's life).

I don't think at,that time of Snape's WORST memory, that James saw Lily as anything more than a challenge that he had to overcome. probably Sirius and James had a bet - Let's see who gets to go out with the fiery red-haired b**ch!

Things do change over the course of years - look at Harry's streaks of righteous PMS and Ron's newfound maturity. Maybe something happened to make James sit up and take notice. It might even have been saving Snape's life that changed him - perhaps he realised that it just wasn't worth it in the end? Or maybe he was even shouldered with responsibility and found that things weren't as simple as he thought they were?

In any case, their deaths wouldn't have been mourned as much if James was considered a total dingbat. And Harry wouldn't have been held in such high esteem if that were the case either - always being compared to his father in a favourable way. People change. It's the nature of life and all that.

Very well said Personally I was of the opinion that Harry's father was a nice man. He was like Harry, and Snape like Draco. Even though Harry doesn't want the attention, Draco might think that he does, and thus sid things about James that weren't true. Now After OoP, I've changed my mind. It seems that James and Snape never got along and that menas the behaviour we saw was something that might have had led Snape to be tortured on a daily / weekly basis for years. That's atleast 52 times a year. I can't stand being humiliated before my friends once a year, 52 times a year, possible a hundred... or even more.. for a five year period. That would be enough to see a mini version of your tormentor walking around getting the same kind of treatement that James got, and getting favourtism from Dumbledore.... it seems to be that it would be enough of a reason to hate Harry. And NO SNAPE/LILY needs to come into this.

People do change when they grow up, I'm inclined to believe all of what Sirius said. Sirius did not say that with age James became nice, and that because of Lily he started to like Snape.... or be ttoally nice to Snape.

Yeah, I think James just grew up and decided not to be a git...

Lots of people are morons at age 15. Harry aside (since we all know how with Harry, there are exceptions), most guys aren't exactly nice or mature when they're fifteen. He grew up. I figure that at age 16, the whole thing with Sirius telling Snape about Lupin happened, and maybe some sort of death (James' grandparents? Sirius said at the beginning of the book that James lived with his grandparents, didn't he?) and it all just made him *grow up*. You can't be a childish git FOREVER.

Let's face it. We've been spoiled by Harry and Ron and the other Weasley bros by them being nice boys. Harry has never really been an arrogant git because he's grown up with arrogant gits. I think James and Sirius' arrogant gitness came from the fact that they were both from pureblood families and were both pretty clever guys. I don't mean that they looked down on people who weren't purebloods but they've got less to worry about and perhaps more allround respect from all wizards. It's pretty hard to put into words I suppose but perhaps that may be a cause for the arrogance. I mean it seems to be a thing, i've watched guys harry's age in their fifth year be arrogant gits but by the time they get into their 6th and 7th year they change loads and become less arrogant. just a theory...

I know what you mean, by their sixth year, James was no longer arrogant - he saved Snape's life! So he must have changed drastically enough for Lily to see him for what he really is!

I know what you mean, by their sixth year, James was no longer arrogant - he saved Snape's life! So he must have changed drastically enough for Lily to see him for what he really is!

Exactly He just saw the error of his ways

"look at Harry's streaks of righteous PMS"

love that statement

People do change quickly. I mean look at Harry, he was not as....angry....last year.

So, James probably matured.And made a change for the better, 'cause Lily went out with him...

And Sirius probably matured too.... just maybe after Hogwarts. He just doesn't seem like he was always so...serious . But he's gone now....*cries*

Don't you find it interesting that it IS love/hate? The L/J relationship? I mean, there are so many of those kind of fics out there, it's kind of funny how some people predicted it, huh?

bah! worrying thought that i'm sure isn't needed but you don't think J.K.Rowling has been reading too much fanfiction? She does look at fan sites sometimes. Nah...nah she won't she's had the story planned out for years....hasn't she...ok someone stop me panicing

Well, I am of the opinion that James just slowly realized he was not the great person he always thought he was. This happens to a lot of people. It happened to me. James was a self-centered, arrogant teen who believed everything should come to him, and everything should go his way simply because he wished it. He had no concept of others's feelings beyond his friends'. Snape, though he was not really a nice person, didn't deserve all that they put him through.

It all really comes down to the fact that people do change, and realize their mistakes. This is what happened in this case. James came to understand himself, and sought to change his ways. This is how he got Lily.

Darkstar

Well... there really aren't that many possibilities for a relationship. It's either love/love or love/hate, ne?

People change. They grow up. As part of the growing up process they go through teenage angst (as Harry so beautifully exibhited) and usually come through a better person. James probably went through the same thing.

James is the classic High School "Jock"... think chick flick... A little like Zack in "She's All That" (etc) They grow out of it. Especially when their heart's in the right place. James wasn't evil. Arrogant definately, but not evil.

Snape's memory is skewed to his POV and it was his worst memory, not his best. So that would be James at his worst. On most days James would probably be just throwing insults and minor curses. A little less dramatic, I suppose.

In a way, James would have matured more than Sirius, I'd guess. Sirius still having a very wide rebellious streak and James, I'd suggest, calmed down much more, with Lily acting as his voice of reason.

Not surprised Rowling has a peek into fansites. She has everything planned out already, and as she said in the interview, won't and can't change anything due to popular opinon or anyone coming too close to her plot.

something I've just thought about. In a way it was Sirius' arrogance that killed him

QUOTE

"come on you can do better than that!" he yelled his voice echoing around the cavernous room.

merged with similar topic. - PK mods

How Did James Get Lily To Like Him?-OOTP talk

OOP gave us a meager picture (highly biased in my opinion) of James, and co. and Lily. One thing that is inarguable though is that she wasn't impressed with James during their fifth year.

So, what do you guys think turned it around?

I have a few ideas.
1. James just showed Lily how he matured by not hexing people anymore, less open pranking (yeah, he wouldn't give it up totally), and trying to help smaller people out.

2. He did something incredible that we have yet to discover that showed both the staff and Lily that he really had good heart, despite his pranking, and was a sort of hero. (Based on McGonagall's high praise of him)

3. Snape did something to Lily and James saved her (based on his attitude towards her in OOP) this one is kinda far fetched.

4. The "Prank" happened after this scene and Lily was impressed that he saved Snape despite the fact that she knew he hated him so much.

5. He started wooing her and she was defenseless to his charm despite his flaws.

6. He didn't change, but she came to accept him as he was.

Well, what do you guys think? One or more of the above? Or something different?

Okay, let me have a go at this.

Firstly, that is Snape's WORST memory, coloured by all the venom and hate thinking about the Marauders could muster. Since a memory is based on a personal perception, Snape's perception of James and the Marauders cannot be juged as fair and honest (we know exactly how fair he is) - for Sirius did tell us that Snape too belonged to a gang of Slytherins nearly all of whom became death eaters. I have a feeling that The Marauders, banded together out of pure necessity in their first year, because Snape and his gang were picking on them - after all, Snape knew more curses in his 1st year than all the 7th year students did. I also feel that Snape's Slytherin gang picked individual members of the Marauders (when they were alone) and The Marauders did the same with individual members of Snape's Slytherin gang.
That's what Harry saw - The Marauders picking on Snape when he was alone. Not Snape's Slytherin gang picking on - say - Remus or Peter or James or Sirius, individually. I'll bet that Snape and his lot were as bad as The Marauders, if not worse.

This memory happened when Snape was in year 5 and James saved him from Sirius' prank in year 6. Now, a drastic change must have occurred somewhere in between - but when? why? how?

I cannot find an answer to pinpoint EXACTLY when the change took place, just sometime in between SNM and The Prank. As to why it would happen and how he changed, the easiest answer would be - well, he was a teenager and he simply matured. Personally, I don't find that convincing enough. I feel that there may have been a family tragedy - perhaps the loss of a parent or sibling/cousin (close to James), would have made James less agressive, more thoughtful about others, more caring and less brash. The change did not completely change completely; he was the same James but, he just mellowed down a bit and took things a bit more seriously. Sirius obviously didn't, hence the prank. James, realizing the gravity of the situation saves Snape - a person he absolutely detested - at great risk to his own life and ends up becomming a school hero! This would have enabled Lily to feel more warmly towards him - 'If he can save Snape, maybe I've underestimated him; maybe he isn't so bad, after all!'

Going back to that scene, from some of the dialogue; it is clear that there are parallels:

1) Lily = Hermione.
2) James = Harry with one hell of an attitude problem.
3) Sirius = Ron with brains and attitude.
4) Severus = Malfoy with Slytherin pride.

Check out James' response when Snape called Lily a mudblood - James says that he would not call her by that name. Check out Harry's response when Malfoy calls Hermione a mudblood - Harry says "Malfoy, Hermione's a witch!". That's the difference between the two of them at nearly that age. Note that here's a Hermione Lily constant thing here - both Lily and Hermione are "mudbloods".

Thst's because there's a close bond between Harry and Hermione and there's a not so close bond between James and Lily. I think that when James, Sirius and Lily went to Hogwarts, they had pretty much the same relationship that Harry, ron and Sirius had - she was basically bossy and the guys didn't like her. It took the Troll incident for the boys to form the friendship with Hermione. Without that friendship, it's easy to imagine the relationship (non-shippy) between Harry, Ron and Hermione, which would have been much like James, Sirius, and Lily. When James became head-boy Hogwarts, Lily probably became head-girl - then she must have seen the real James. One thing; the wedding Photo of James and Lily shows that they were in love and doesn't show the perception that Harry has of it post SWM - That James tricked Lily into marrying him!

*Thinks about something completely medlodramatic*

I can actually see one of them getting injured because of something Severus did. I don't know why. But I can see the other (This is where the medlodramatic part comes in) staying with the other and then love would play it's course.

Maybe Lily was actually trying to resist the urge of James in that memory. Maybe her way of not getting (can't think of better word so) 'wooed' was to just say anything she could against what he did.

QUOTE

1) Lily = Hermione. 2) James = Harry with one hell of an attitude problem.

Actually, I don't entirely agree with this parallel. If there was one thing this scene proved to me, it's that for all the constant comparisons between Harry and James, Harry is not like his father. He got his personality -- his willingness to stand up for people, his own particular sense of right and wrong -- from his mother. I think that's significant, especially since we know almost nothing about Lily. If anything, I think Lily was more of a cross between Harry and one of the more temperamental Weasleys. I can't see Hermione ever pulling a wand on Harry.

Of course, if you want to compare that scene with Hermione, Draco, and the smack in PoA...

I don't know, based on the information given in SWM I think that James was a little more like Malfoy than anyone else. I know, nobody wants to hear THAT but come on. Even though he completely dislikes Malfoy, Harry's never just out and out attacked him horribly for no reason at all.

But as to how does James get Lily to like him.

Well I think there is more to James than what we saw in SWM. Odds are he did a little growing up and realized that he couldn't just hex/prank his way through life so he worked at more constructive things. Since he was really popular, James must have done something to earn that aside from tormenting Snape for the delight of the onlooking crowd.

I really think that it's just as Sirius and Remus said, James matured and showed Lily he was someone worth being with in spite of some dumb things he's done before. Maybe "The Prank" had something to do with Lily thinking about this since, as innermurk said

QUOTE

The "Prank" happened after this scene and Lily was impressed that he saved Snape despite the fact that she knew he hated him so much.

Well at least that's my thoughts for the moment.

First off, I have to admit that I was horrified and nearly heartbroken the first time I read OotP and that Pensieve scene. (Although that was mainly because I've always believed that Lily and James were friends first and not enemies...) But after re-reading OotP and thinking about it a lot, I'm happier about L/J as we see them in OotP.

QUOTE

One thing; the wedding Photo of James and Lily shows that they were in love and doesn't show the perception that Harry has of it post SWM - That James tricked Lily into marrying him!

thereader thank you!!! I remembered that too, and that saved my disillusionment with James.

I think that the prank, in 6th year, may have had something to do with it, to show Lily that James is not just the vain, shallow prat she seems to think he is. Also, I thnk some tragedy (personally, I'm convinced James' parents were killed by DE's) also made James become more mature and more caring, and made Lily care about him more. (I'm planning to write a fic based on this theory, in fact, if I can convince my muse out of hiding...)

First I need to say,

Sorry thereader I must not've been as clear as I'd hoped when I posted the first time around.

I understand that memory was biased by Snape, and I agree with everything you said.

BUT what I did get from the scene that seems to have been true (at least Lupin and Sirius didn't contradict it) was that Lily was not impressed with James. That particular incident aside, she still was not going out with him and not pleased with his actions.

My view of James was probably much like Harry's. I want to stay in my fantasy of him being a nice caring and considerate person. (maybe we'll get a view of him becoming one next book *crosses fingers desperately*) But (devestation) when I read that passage the first thing I thought of was that Dumbledore had told us way back in PS/SS that Snape and James had a relationship much like Harry and Draco do. Then I was devestated to think that James was the Draco.
But someone else pointed out in a post somewhere that if we'd only seen a glimpse of one of Harry's and Draco's fights, we could be biased into thinking that Draco was the wronged and Harry was the agressor. Which we all know is untrue.

Anyway, I'll try to quit rambling and come to the point here.
We know that Lily and James were obviously in love. A true love
And we know that they were highly admired by a lot of people.
We know James was head boy and Lily was head girl which seems to demand a position of a certain amount of consideration and responsibility to others. So we know that James HAD matured by that time, at least enough to be trusted with that position of power and not to abuse it. Even though he was not previously a prefect in fifth year. (Although, since Draco was a prefect, it really makes you wonder hm? Do the heads of houses reccommend who they think should be prefect, or does the headmaster decide it all do you think?)

What we don't know is how exactly he got Lily to go out with him
I can almost quasi-imagine a scene of him singing Henry the VIII to her until she relented (any Ghost fans out there)

I personally like to think his maturity with the prank incident, and some tragedy turned him around enough to make her take notice.
I also like to think of James maturing and rising above his past discretions quickly and honorably, while Snape wallows in his own immaturity and hate to this day.
I don't like Snape.

QUOTE

3. Snape did something to Lily and James saved her (based on his attitude towards her in OOP) this one is kinda far fetched.

Now would this be far fetched because James saved Lily? Beause if you look in SWM James was writting initals on a piece of spare parchment, like you would do for someone you liked, and the initals were L.E., or Lily Evans!

he probably just grew up...

*looks around* i do believe this is my first post in Lily/James...o_O

i think

Alright, I'm not sure about this, but I think that Remus or Sirius told Harry that Lily went out with James only after he had deflated his head a bit. I strongly believe that something happened(not just "The Prank" and him growing mature with age). I think that it may have something to do with his parents, a favorite relative or someone he liked a lot getting killed. Only a theory, and most likely wrong, but I really think that something happened to help James lose a lot of his arrogance. And, sorry this is kind of off topic, but does anyone else want to know about how james and lily escaped voldemort the 3 times before they were killed, or is it just me?

the random comments of a serious james/lily fan
Tonks_is_awesome

P.S. I only started reading fanfiction a couple of months ago, so please forgive me if I've said something horrid. Oh, and Oy Angelina!, "Penseive" is one of the best I've read so far

QUOTE

but I think that Remus or Sirius told Harry that Lily went out with James only after he had deflated his head a bit.

That's what I noticed when reading the book. Usually when someone gets their ego deflated they have usually been embarrassed.

So I'm going for a situation in which a mixture of 'The Prank' and something happening to James that embarrassed him, making up the change.

Obviously age and the uprising of dark times brought about him gaining some maturity, but now the question is: What happened to deflate his ego?

Well, I think he sort of grew out of it. He couldn´t keep hexing people around for all his life couldn´t he?
But think about it, he did save Snape´s life. That maybe made Lily to think a little more of James and when he stopped to hexing people she started to like him more.
Or maybe they had some kind of conversation about what he had done and he sad he was sorry and Lily falled in love with him...
That most have been a perfect marriage! or not....

Love///
Carrie

I don't think that James's maturity has anything to do with the death of his parents.... They were 16 in their 6th year of Hogwarts and that's also when Sirius ran away from home and took shelter in James's home. Obviously if James's parents DID get killed, then it would've affected Sirius too, thus making him think more about pranking Snape.


~*Tinki-chan*~

have merged this into a related thread ~gal-texter May2008, *waving at Eric, one of PK's first mods*

OK, I've got quite a rant to pick here. Now, I like many people was initially disillusioned when I read SWM in OotP. I mean after carrying this image of Harry-like James for years JKR comes and blows away. However, after some time of thinking, I've come to realize the value of this chapter in gaining a good view of the personalities of Lily and James. It also helps me appreciate just how much James matured and became compassionate if Harry is constantly being compared to him.

For me, the attitude people have shown in response to James's character in SWM appauls me. It is the perfect example of what H/H shippers sometimes accuse R/H shippers of doing: concentrating on the trees wile missing out on the whole forest. Readers see one scene of James acting like a cocky, bigheaded idiot he once was and instantly they completely dimiss absolutely everything they've heard before about James's character: a man who had enough compassion that had he been in Harry's place in PoA he would've spared Wormtail's life as well, a young man who grew mature enough to save his arch nemesis's life when he thought his best friend had gone over the line, a person whom was always a committed enemy of the dark side and a premier member of the Order of the Phoenix, a person who stood up for muggleborns despite his constant hexing of others, a person who is remembered so highly and always praised by the likes of Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, Moody just to mention a few. A boy who eventually gained the responsibility to become Head Boy and even win the heart of the morally strong Lily Evans. A man who would ultimately sacrificed his life attempting to save his wife and son. I could just go on and on.

Need I mention that SWM was probably highly biased in Snape's favour? Not to mention it was Snape's worst memory. If that was the worse, MWPP's pranks were probably mild in comparison.

Several people have mentioned how Dumbledore compared James and Snape's loathing of each other to Harry and Draco's, and because of SWM, they now think that James was the 'Draco' in the relationship. I truly believe this is false. First of all, Dumbledore wasn't parralleling James and Snape's relationship to Harry and Malfoy's, just saying that they loathed each other the same way. Personally though, I think it all lies in the motivation for their hatred. Now, James hated Snape because Snape was a jerk, heavily into the dark arts who lived to make James's life a living hell. Snape on the other hates James because he is bitter, resentful, and jealous of him.

Now as for Harry and Draco, well Harry hates Draco because he's a jerk, interested in the dark arts, and lives to make Harry's life a living hell. The main differance between Harry and James in this case is that Harry doesn't actively seek out Draco intending to pick on him. Draco on the other hand hates Harry because he is bitter, resentful, and jealous of him. Notice the parrallel. Of course, Draco is bitter, resentful, and jealous of Harry for different reasons that Snape was bitter, resentful, and jealous of James. But the underlying emotions are the same.

The bottom line is that James eventually grew out of his childish, cocky ways to become a compassionate, brave man whom Lily loved dearly. Snape on the other hand (sorry Snape fans) still insists on living by his old grudges, constantly belittling Harry simply because he is James's son, and even ignored the evidence of Sirius's innocence just to see the satisfaction of Sirius losing his soul in petty vengeance.

And now, I rest my case. (Bows and ends rant)

Eric

*applaudes E. C. R. Potter*

I agree. When I realized how others immediately changed their views on James after OotP, I was like... "Huh?"

It was obvious he grew up after that, and I highly doubt Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, etc., etc., would hold him in such high-esteem if he didn't deserve it. He was a fifteen (sixteen?) year old boy. Three-fourths of the fifteen year old boys in my school are exactly the same!



~Faith~

*puts on meek voice* Actually... I was ranting on this with my brother and I thought that I could put it up here but you did it before... *drops meek voice* Oh well...

I totally know what you mean, ECR. People had thought James was all brave and compassionate and since they read SWM, they're like "Oh, he's such an idiot!" I hated that and I'm glad there people around who hate too.

*starts a standing ovation* E.C.R., all I can say is WOW!!! James and Lily are possibly the most enigmatic characters in HP. When people started doubting James and thinking he was jerk, they obviously forgot the title. Snape was a loner, an abused young man who turned to the dark arts for its easy power. Naturally, he would hate James, who was smart, well-liked and very charming. The spats between James and Snape could have been started by MWPP but most forget that Snape started some on his own. Thanks for defending James!

Thank you, E.C.R.!

I'm not too fond of all this James-bashing...one scene of him acting like a jerk, and he's automatically branded as a complete and unchanging jackass. What's up with that?

Pretty much all the points in his favor have been listed already--like how he tried to give Lily a chance to take Harry and run for it while he 'held off the Dark Lord'. And furthermore, it's given that he deflated his ego when he was sixteen or seventeen. And that he saved Snape, moreover.

Almost all of JKR's characters are dynamic in some way. They change as the story goes on, so I think it's fair to assume that James did exactly that. It's not like SWM actually showed that change, and that in itself makes a snap judgment on James's entire character pretty groundless. It told us a lot about what he could be like when he was fifteen, but overall is an entirely different animal.

That's what I thought, at any rate. Glad I found this thread.

How Did James Get Lily To Like Him?

I found a funny and romantic ficlet that answers this question. Read it here.

~Gal Texter

It certainly works better for story purposes if there's specific events that bring about change, but in real life it can just be growing up. Something that was funny a month ago can suddenly not seem quite so clever.



Good fic reccomendation, BTW. <g>

Absoultely fantastic!!! I completely agree on ALL counts and I too was a bit upset to see people's negative reactions to SWM.
Great essay Eric!

ECR, while I agree with most of what you say, this is one thing of my opinion that it seems very few people that are pro-OotP!James thinks : The Pensieve is completely and wholly objective. (Opinion. Not canon fact.)

Would Snape have really heard MWPP's conversation about the werewolf question? Would the scene have been ANY different if it was from, say, Sirius's point of view? The same events would have occurred, wouldn't they have? Peter still would have watched James admiringly with the Snitch, Remus would still be studying Transfiguration, Snape would still be looking over the Defence stuff, and Sirius would still proclaim that he's 'bored'. They'd still go over to Snape and they would still have their, erm, exchange, and Lily would still come over and indignantly stand up for Snape. Etcetera, etcetera. I fail to see what would have changed if it had been from someone else's point of view. The same events would occur. Certainly, if it was from Lily's point of view, she wouldn't have heard any of the conversation, only saw the "joke" Sirius and James were playing on Snape, but it would have been the same.

I think the Pensieve is objective. And I wonder if it was *really* Snape's worst memory of them all. Being a Death Eater can't be all fun and games -- shouldn't he have bad memories of, say, you know, killing a load of people, or getting tortured by Voldemort for some reason or another? I thought and still think it's a bit suspicious that a prank from something like 20 years ago is his absolute worst memory in all 35-40 years of his life.

Anyway, back on topic. James. He was a bigheaded arse in the Memory. I can see why people would be kind of... iffy about him, now. He's just stepped off his pedestal to both Harry and the rest of the world. No more amazingandalwaysgoodandnoble!James. We have musthavematuredlater!James and bigpratwhenfifteen!James, which people don't like in comparison to nearlyagod!James. I liked the Memory episode, only for the fact that it gave him more character. I'd admire someone who was faced with challenges (i.e. his more crappy side of his personality) and overcame them (i.e. becoming a noble person that everyone raves about to Harry), rather than someone who was just born *perfect*. It builds character, the whole maturing thing.

Everyone's fifteen once, and hardly everyone is mature and perfect at the age. Teenagers are rarely perfect and nice all the time. James is allowed to *be* a teenager despite being Harry's father.

Moving right along... about Snape ignoring evidence of Sirius's innocence to see his soul sucked out is not quite true, is it? Snape didn't *see* any evidence in the Shrieking Shack. He saw two old friends, one that used to torment him in school and tried to kill him, and he saw three Gryffindor kids that always get into trouble. What would you think if you saw that? All right, so Snape's got more issues than Rolling Stone, but at first glance, it didn't exactly look the best. Known murderer? If Remus believed Sirius did it, Snape would *definitely* believe that Sirius did it. There was no visible or immediately recognisable evidence to ignore. After that, during OotP, he wasn't exactly calling the dementors forward. In OotP, Snape and Sirius were equally vindictive, but Snape just had better stuff to goad Sirius with. Personally, I think Snape probably feels slightly remorseful for goading Sirius on when it led to Sirius's death.

All in all, I mostly agree with you ECR Potter.

Actually, the SWM thing made James much more interesting to me. Most of the canon info we have on the man are from people like Sirius and Remus, who were his closest friends, and Snape, who despised him. Shove all that together and I think we kinda get an idea of what James was actually like -- a bit of a jerk who grew up into a very decent human being.

And yes, he was a jerk in SWM, even if it wasn't necessarily objective. On the other hand, he also becomes furious with Snape for insulting Lily, and like Sirius said, he would've spared Peter too. He's not Saint!James anymore, but he's hardly OMGEVIL!!!1! and that makes him so much more intriguing for me.

(And I adore SWM Lily, but that's another story entirely.)

- Lisse

Yay! I totally agree with that one. SWM was my absolute favorite chapter in OotP, maybe one of my favorite sections in all of the books, because it gave me a new set of characters to get to know, and most importantly, a new heroine who's easy to love. It was what inspired me to write my first relatively serious fic, which is L/J.

Anyway . . . I totally agree with you, ECR Potter, in that James is definitely a good person at heart, but is of course full of normal adolescent immaturity. I'm not sure, however, that James would be able to able to put aside his grudge if he faced Snape today!

AWSOME!!!
i am really really really glad tat at least there are some ppl out there who care for james and do defend him. I HATED it when i read couple of crap bout him being a jerk ( me and my bro actually got into an argument)...ny ways again LOVE YA GUYS

lataz

-lily

Hm. I agree with bits and pieces of what you said. Let's see...

James at the age of 15 was an absolute bully. He hexes 'anything that moves', attacked Snape 'because he exists', stole a snitch... I do not believe for one second that the pensieve was biased because it was Snape's memory - that was how it happened. Remus and Sirius confirmed that James was not exactly an angel at school, and implied that events really did occur as Harry saw them. James was Wizard!Dudley. In my opinion, of course.

He was *not* a nice guy here. At all.

Now, there are a few things which redeem him in all this. The first, that he was 15. Just 15 - and obviously very strongly opposed to the DarkArts, and its advocators like Snape. That opposition to darkness bodes well for him, and reading between the lines, I have no doubt of the fact that many times it was *Snape* who attacked first, not James & co.

The second, he grew up and changed. He changed enough to allow Lily to overlook the fact that he was a bullying brat, and actually fall in love with him. Lily, who was the *only* character to come out of SWM smelling of roses. Lily, whose opinion I trust more than any other character in that scene. We know he was very highly thought of later in life, so he obviously was a good person.

To be honest, I could not be happier that James was a total git as a youth - it makes him *so* much more interesting than the usual angelic-doer-of-good James Potter, Harry's perfect and beloved father who never did a thing wrong in his entire life. Aren't flawed characters who have to develop and make a journey before earning the love of those they care about (those like Lily) much more interesting than those who gain it automatically?

I reckon so, anyways.

That's a common misconception that James has always been a jerk. Teenagers tend to act like jerks/idiotic when they're 13-15-years-old. By the age of 16, most of them would've matured. That's the lesson on maturity/growing up for you, I guess.

Of course, since this was from Snape's point of view, and the way James acted back then, it would be biased, wouldn't it? That's the reason why he holds a grudge against the Potters to this day. And even if it was his worst memory, chances are there were worse things that had happened to him. Maybe this is just a taste of what the Marauders did. You never know.

So, all in all, James grew out of it. It was just a phase that everyone goes through. Why hold a grudge against James just because of it? He was just acting the way every adolescent boy does before he reaches maturity, that's all. It's not his fault he acted that way. James was just being your average, everyday 15-year-old boy.

Brilliant rant/points, Eric. *claps*

I agree with what everyone has said, and honestly, after reading SWM, I found myself liking James more. I find that I love characters after I see them acting like complete jerks, especially if I know they aren't all that bad in the end.

But then again, it might also be the fact that I love Draco Malfoy, and James reminded me of Draco so much in SWM. It only showed me that there is hope for Draco yet!

-Sakura

I've never thought of James as a hero, or what have you, for trying to hold Voldemort back. I just thought of it as a husband and father who wants to try and save his wife and child. I mean, it was definitely brave of him to do, but it's something many men would do in the same position. He wasn't doing a heroic thing, just acting on the love he had for his family.

I really hate people who are now going, "Well, James was being mean to Snape so he MUST be a stupid little jerk now." Just like Sirius said, James grew out of it, or else James wouldn't have been held in such high esteem by apparently a large majority of readers. Also, we've only seen ONE memory of James at Hogwarts in all five books. Unfortunately it was a bad one, but I say wait until James gets a chance to redeem himself in another memory. He's not a bad person, I don't think, or else Lily wouldn't have married him or even gone out with him.

Also, while reading Snape's Worst Memory, and the chapter following it, it really annoyed me how Harry was suddenly thinking his father is some little jerk. I mean, he didn't KNOW James. He has basically NO memories of James. And, you know, Harry just generally annoyed me in the whole book. He became a hot-head, kind of paranoid, and I just found him so . . . dramatic. Like, Ooh, love me, I need love. And surely Harry can understand what Sirius was saying about how James just didn't like Snape when they first met because, HELLO, it's the same thing that happened with Harry and Malfoy. If Harry were arrogant, I'm almost sure he would be hexing Malfoy and doing the stuff James did to Snape.

I would really hate it if in the books to come Harry was finding being compared to James making him sick as he had for a while in OoTP. I hope that one memory of James doing a bad thing wouldn't overshadow the fact that James did sacrifice his life for Harry, and even though I don't find that particularly hero-making, it was a very brave thing to do. Harry should be honored to be compared to James.

Whew. Had all that on my chest since book five came out!

I agree with most of you. People need to remember that this is SNAPE'S memory. It was biased and from Snapes point a view. And that's already saying something. After all we all know that Snape HATED James, and wouldn't have hesitated to kill him if he got the chance. Besides James was 15-16 years old. I mean, come on!seriously, 15-16 year old boys's maturity is equivalent to a 9 or 10 year olds. Besides, we have to give him props in becoming such a mature, honest, and over all, brave and compassionate young man. He's been through a lot and we have to give him props. Besides, looking the way he is, even if he WAS a arse, I'm willing to over look it!

What about how we would see Harry's behaviour (objectively!) in OoTP? Hotheaded, accusing his friends of doing things behind his back, and with no respect for authority or people who want to help him?
I'm thinking SWM is put in there to show Snape's hatred - how he's never moved on for what MWPP were like in school... not to show that James was a prat. They're teenagers, it goes with them age!

I'm not completely sure I agree with everything here. Cause James was a prat. Maybe he grew out of it, but in that particular memory he was a typical bully. No excuses. I know the boys in my class (15 year olds.) would never, ever, act that way. A 15 year old has more common sense than that, and I'm *Almost* (Well not quite...) offended all excuses goes back to the age. He might be 15, but he's an immature 15 year old then.

Okay, I just have to add my opinion onto this one, because after I read SWM I was shellschocked.
I believe that since it was Snape's WORST memory, that was the worst thing they did. It took a lot of convincing, I mean, I can just imagine James & the Maraduers waltzing down the hall, going "look, there's Snape!" and, well-.
But everyone can get carried away, even egotistical boys. I don't believe in blaming it on age, because I'm in the 6th grade & we're pretty advanced (they put us in a special class, hehe!) Sorry, I'm new to the whole post-thingy, so I'm just playing around (notice the freaky colour & size of the font!!)
So, that's just what I think. Lily was by far the coolest one. It's my fav OoTP chapter. I read it over & over, I've got it memorised!!

True L/J Freeeeeeek!