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The following are only a few of the 800+ replies that had been originally posted on that older thread. I've removed plenty of debate-y and off-topic posts. I might've missed a few in here though. I'm not yet done looking over the remaining replies.
- gal-texter Jun 2008




it actually is like one of those romantic old movies---Casablanca---where you know they love each other very much but he sends her off with the safer guy who he knows loves her and will take care of her. [

remember seeing that movie, it was pretty good, and it is a chick movie so.
my girlfriend wanted to see it soo, the guys know what i talk about anyway.
beside that is is a classic, i think it oculd fit pretty good with the H/H relationship, it could had been more but with voldie around he gave it up, then when he survived it was too late.
he wanted her to be happy so he gave it up that option until he got alive out of it.
perhaps i really liked that movie at all.

man... this all makes me wanna kry... still, i wouldn't want the series to end any other way...

a wonderful finish to a wonderful projekt. marvelous padfoot, just marvelous. have you been nominated for harmonian of the month?

When that nomination comes up I'll be putting in my vote.

This essay has been a true pleasure to read. It shows just how beautiful H/hr is in cannon, not just in all our minds. Looking at it like this makes you feel that this was the best way for this to end. A thousand thanks.

Its true! Everything that we have ever said about Harry and Hermione came true in this book!

Harry and Hermione finishing eachothers sentances:



Harry looking to Hermione for support:





Harry trusting Hermione like no other:



Finding comfort in eachothers touch:





Dont even get me started on silent communication.

I mean its all just there. Blatantly stated in cannon. We dont even have to assume or read between the lines anymore. This was truly the best book for H/HR.

I wanted to wait for all the parts to be finished before replying, and all I have to say is: WOW!

Excellent analysis! I completely agree with everything you said. However I believe a lot of the H/Hr we got was accidental. (Reminds me of the song “Accidental in Love” ). Thanks the for brilliant essay because it made me feel happier about DH. I definitely am glad that H/Hr have everlasting love than H/G and R/Hr’s happy life.

True love is wanting the person you love to be happy even if it means not being with you. I don’t think Harry sacrificed Hermione for Ron so Ron could be happy. He did it because he believed that Hermione would be happier with Ron.
When Ron made the choice to come back, he must’ve prepared for the possibility that H/Hr might together. He might’ve even expected it. It’s Harry that assures him nothing happened. And something tells me that if it weren’t for Harry telling him that Ron would have backed down. Ron would be willing to make the same sacrifice for Harry.

*Just for fun*
*Maybe this is just my gutter-mind; but here's a quote from when snake-Bathilda attacks.

I must say I was so distracted by the “anvil sized hints” that I failed to see the subtle Harry and Hermione moments. I didn’t realize there was a good portion of them. Though, I think you occasionally let your delusional mind take over the interpretation that didn’t diminish the amount of, to borrow your acronyms (love those btw, lol), PELT and HUTKFAHH in the text.

It boggles the mind why she wrote all the beautiful HHR prose if she was going to end it as she did. Intentional or not, writing Harry’s devotion to Hermione as inspired and romantic as it was made his relationship with Ginny all the more trite and superficial. Hermione with Ron is only a tad better since at best their relationship was mostly depicted as cute. If JKR’s goal was to portray Harry making a sacrifice for love, then she achieved her it. Because he sacrificed the most beautiful, honest, and fulfilling relationship he has ever had or will probably ever have. And for what, the Weasleys? That is so wrong.

This was a delight to read. Makes me so glad I'm a Harmonian. I appreciate the insight and enjoyed the humour you put into it.

Wow! What an essay Padfoot! You'll get my vote for the Harmonian of the month when we'll come down to it.

Great things underlined, and here are my 2 cents on the last points.



On point number 1, I guess you may be right but I feel that was quite a huge deal of a sacrifice Harry and Hermione made if they really wanted to keep Ron around. That was a lot to ask from them when they can feel yet how good they are of a match on the points of PELT (as someone named it).

For point number 2, sorry that English is not quite my native language, but what does the term "cross-purposes" mean.

Point number 3... if it ended H/Hr, I believe the outcome in the final duel would have been more believable than what we had IMO: I mean using love to defeat Voldemort, striking thunder twice on him and making history to repeat itself. I know writing this wouldn't have been an easy task, but I think there was a way to write H/Hr in a reasonable way to overshadow not Harry's journey as a whole.

Point 4... nothing to say there.



Agreed! However, there are many times I still wished that life-lasting bond to materialize itself like it always happened in other TV series, anime and movies I watch.


So wrong indeed.

As I always said, I wish Ron made that sacrifice instead of Harry because of everything the latter already sacrificed in his life: Harry deserved to have more after everything he lost over the years. I would have been interesting if Ron made a huge sacrifice on his own will for the first time and let the H/Hr story sail like I already saw with other pairings I shipped in the past.

This is finally what occured to me a few days back. I was looking at some old promotional pictures for CoS and there was this one picture with Ron and Hermione standing back to back and rolling their eyes. JKR wanted to have a comical, light-hearted, romance in this book that convieniantly ends in an all around happy ending. Ron and Hermione is that sort of cute adoring child hood romance. I've seen it in many other movies and stories. This is a way to bring a bit of humour to an already dark book.

But its clear in our minds that Harry and Hermione are the ones who are right for eachother. And I never really thought about how powerful their realationship really was until I read the Godrics Hollow chapter. That is what it would have been like if she had written both of them together. Its very powerful, mature, and an emotional realationship that would have overshadowed the series. But its definatly there, and runs strong.

Wow, I love the playlist! It's really funny, because all of the songs I really seem to like, that talk about any sort of romantic relationship, all seem to relate to Harry/Hermione to me.

I completely agree with all the things you said. Especially about the epilogue. I was disappointed yes, that Harry and Hermione were not the end couple of the series, but I was also filled with warmth from the scenes that JKR wrote in.

But the epilogue, just killed me. It wasn't so much that I really cared the Harry/Ginny and then Hermione/Ron were married, because that was expected after the end of the book (as shallow I felt the romance to be.) What did bother me however, was the lack of focus on the wizarding world as a whole. Sure, we got an "all was well" at the end, but what in the world does that mean? It could mean an multitude of things. It's just so vague that it irks me.

Plus, on that note, I agree that the epilogue was to Weasley focused. I mean, JKR left out a lot of people in the epilogue. The epilogue would have been better if Jo had tried to emphasize the change during the last 19 years. I mean, I feel like she tried (with Draco and Harry not killing each other when they saw each other and having Harry tell his son it doesn't matter what house he gets sorted into) but I don't think it really was enough. I felt like Slytherin's sure, are probably more accepted by the other houses now, but only slightly. I really felt like Harry was akin to the sorting hat during the epilogue: urging inter-house unity, but only being heard because of his influence.

Padfoot,

Thank you so much for this essay. It really is so well done, and I really appreciate all the quotes. I think this essay will stand as one of the ways Harmonians make peace with Deathly Hallows. Thanks so much for that!!

I also wanted to add, does anyone else think it strange that Harry won't think about Ginny dying only AFTER he's seen Ron and Hermione kiss? It's like Harry's thinking, "Okay, it's official now. Who am I gonna have when this is all over, if I live?"

Ginny is so totally a consolation prize in this case.

ETA: I'm rereading Deathly Hallows right now, and there's a part where Harry is wanting to hold on to Ginny, but he doesn't because they are interrupted. The text says on page 74:

What bugs me about this scene is that, wouldn't Hermione be worried about George, too? So why doesn't she come inside? Is she really, for once, worried about Ron? I hate to think that, but I think she's always had a soft spot for Ron, especially after his NDE in HBP.

Thoughts?

Thank you, everyone! Thank you so much! I'm so happy you've enjoyed this!




The H/G here, I feel, is another classic example of Harry wanting to forget with Ginny. But strictly, I feel forgetfulness is a bad thing; it completely takes him away from his responsibilities. That's what's so great about H/Hr: Hermione makes him remember, and remember the good that's come of even the terrible things.

As for Hermione being genuinely worried about Ron, I'm certain she is. After all, she has some romantic feelings for him (else she would never have married him and Harry would never have believed she loved Ron more than him), and she's also a very good friend. So I don't think this bit is something we really need to worry about. The fact that she "hugs" Ron, but "throws herself into Harry's arms" is telling enough for me.




"Cross-purposes", as I used it there, basically means that Harry and Hermione were always mistaken about the depth of each other's feelings for the other and their timing was always off. I.e. when Hermione might have confessed her feelings to Harry (HBP), he was infatuated with Ginny and so, believing he loved Ginny and was happy with her, Hermione backed off for his sake. Then, when Harry might have confessed all to Hermione (DH), Ron returned and Harry, believing that Hermione would be happier with Ron, backed off in turn.

Just my interpretation.

Hahaha, Can we name this whole series "Harry Potter and the biggest missunderstanding of his life?"

love you guys so much, cheered me up, especially padfoot, for writing the single best thing that cheered me up significantly from the past few weeks.


Below is my super random reflection and rant and question about this whole DH thing...

After reading the whole series, it feels more like she wrote the bk6 and 7 first before bk 1-5.

maybe she didn't intend for HHr to happen, but then she grew to love them? but then she had to alter them to stay loyal to the first thing she wrote? the epilogue? Anyways the way you explained in your part 5, i feel like they are having an affair behind their ...red headed significant other...tension, guilt? haha maybe I think too much...

maybe even JK is HHr fan, but too stubborn to realize, and besides her "fans" like the idea of HG and RHr better.

Another note:

I just can't believe she had to make the red heads "super". I mean, why?

why would hermione become so weak? and irrational, and tries desperately to hold on to Ron?

I love the analysis but I can't help but think about all these "moments" that RHr had. I feel that its forced, just to fit the epilogue

beginning to think maybe people don't really want a romantic couple, they just want something superficial and interesting to watch....interesting to them I mean.

I thought Hermione's brain cell died, and Harry become cold and distant, almost like they just met each other, but padfoot_lives explanation is much, much better. Every evidence shines "tragic lovers that never could never tell each other their feelings" in bright neon Sign after I read your analysis.

why would the "cleverest witch of her age" go for Ron? only to clean for him and argue with him? I think she just likes the sense of security, since Harry "thinks" Ginny is the one he "???" like or love? well, enough to marry her.


supposely you can say Ron grew up and changed, but I feel like reading sailor moon or something, Ron being a stupid prat all the time, and when the time comes, he transform in to SUPER Ron and saves Hermione? I actually hates Ron more because he did not grow, he is still the same jealousy boy, every book he does something childish, and come back just to apologize, and this DH is no different. I feel the only reason why he is ok at the end is because Harry didnt fight for Hermione, and Hermione is genuinely attempting to stay with him, and it seems like Hermione only likes Ron when he is "Super" Rest of times she just treats him like a child.

Ginny never approves of Hermione, as well as the way Ron treats Harry, feels like the Weasley Sibling is trying to compete for attention. Ginny trying to butt in and Ron always trying to win over Harry for Hermione's attention. Guess no one wants Harry and Hermione together...?

but then again...the Weasleys actually looked like a consolidation prize for Harry and Hermione...eh, I mean, thats such a sad way to end a children's book.


I am so convinced with all of your Theories, especially padfoot_lives, just wanna say, love you so much for taking on this project, you don't know how happy this made me.



I feel almost everyone out there loves HG and RHr, are we just slightly more..quiet? and like the couples indicates, HG and RHr crowds are louder, and more aggressive, to get their point across. Besides, this coupling is "cuter"...for alot of people, I guess.

anyways I don't see how making Ron and Ginny happy is more important than Harry's happiness....Maybe, we should all have complete and genuine respect for Harry and Hermione to sacrafice their true love for the Weasley siblings. Ron is great friend, Ginny is beautiful, alright...Ron explicitly and truely cares about Hermione, and Ginny is determined to stay with Harry..I guess its one of those never-ending soappy dramas if Harry and Hermione doesn't step aside..

Woah!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH for a very wonderfully written essay Padfoot. And I reiterate, this made me wanna cry in frustration but at the same time, it made me immensely proud of being a H/Hr shipper.

That, and as stupid and dumb as this may sound but can somebody tell me what OBHWF stands for? I've been reading that acronym all over the forums and I only have some vague idea about it.

One last thing, was an essay similar to this one also written out of the other books? I've saved this essay and I thought of printing it but would love to have a complete 7-book H/Hr moments.

This essay.. amazing! Padfoot, you're amazing! Fantastic! MArvelous! You're amazing Padfoot! Great great essay! So totally loved it! and did I mention that you're amazing?!

It occurred to me recently that maybe this was the point- that JKR wanted to show that a platonic love could be deeper and more beautiful than the so-called "romantic" relationships. A woman who appreciates Jane Austen and "Emma" in particular must
know how superficial H/G appears. But then I wonder why she would diminish H/Hr's relationship in the HBP and DH if that was the case. I do feel that their relationship was diminished, or somehow different, in the last 2 books despite some glorious moments. I just can't figure it out. Sometimes I think that JKR has multiple personality disorder and the H/Hr scenes are written by one of her other personalities!

OBHWF=One Big Happy Weasley Family

That's exactly what I've been thinking.

I'd agree with you but I thought she crossed the platonic line when Harry was drooling at Hermione at the Yule Ball. Come on, no one looks at their sister that way without is being incest. (I forgot who said it but the scene is almost identical to Clueless.)

I agree with Padfoot_Lives. The both backed off because they believed that they both would be much happier with someone else. They both believed that their feelings for their significant others was much stronger than what it really was. One of the most cannon telling moments of this is this line:





His words died in his throat. Those are some really powerful words potraying a really powerful emotion. At this point Harry sees what he thinks are great feelings for Ron coming from Hermione. And I'm gonna take the liberty to say that he's not too thrilled about it. But he does acknowledge it and he does take notice. I think he really starts believing that she loves Ron.

I've said this in the alchemy thread that Godrics Hollow is the scene where he
"Takes off the cloak" as Padfoot_lives said, and allows himself be with her. Nothing too major, but something as innocent as holding her hand and putting his arms around her, and holding on to her. He takes the initiative for the first time. He knows that he needs her and responds to her touch. Basically he lets himself need her. I hope that makes sense

If Harry hadnt seen Batilda Bagshot and the fiasco at her house hadnt happend, what do you think Harry and Hermione would have done? I for one think they might have walked around a bit more...maybe gone into the church. The setting was romantic as hell. If they they had left on a high note I'm sure their feelings might have finnaly come out into the open. They were so close...

I like Parker Grey's review the best, simple. He said something like, "Perfect. Just . And yeah, still OTP. (Only True Pairing). OBHWF might have gotten eleven pages of Epilogue, but I got to read 760ish pages of love story, not to mention however many pages before that."

We got a love story, folks. We got a "first love" story, before Harry and Hermione let their mutual concern for Ron push any feelings they had for each other aside. But you never, ever, ever forget your first love. I can just picture Harry, trying to drown himself in Ginny and taking comfort in his kids, and Hermione doing the same. But you never forget. That's why the tension is there, IMO, in the Epilogue.

I never entertained the idea of dropping the fandom if OBHWF happened. I always thought, "Eh, so HBP was OBHWF. FTW, I like HHr. So what?"

It's the same for me in DH. So what if it's OBHWF? It doesn't affect my shipping preference. It just makes it non-canon.

You know, I couldn't see the "tragic love story" angle until you started posting this thread. As it happened, I started DH on July 21 at 10:30 a.m., finished it at 2:30 p.m. the next day (no, I'm too old to stay up all night reading, and I've got a family to attend to). Then the next morning I was up at 4:00 a.m. and took a 6:30 a.m. flight with my daughter - we took a long-planned vacation, visiting some HP fandom friends and attending a wedding in my family. All I could think about (when not with my family) was how JKR had bollixed up the romances. I had an idea for an essay (more of a rant) in my head, called Ur Romances R Pastede On Yay - I was going to rail against the (IMO) unbelievable romances in the HP series. H/G I still don't believe, because Harry and Ginny don't seem to have any connection beyond the physical Ron/Hermione I can believe a bit more now, though I'm still not terribly happy with it. It's only this thread that has enabled me to move a little bit away from feeling bitter. I don't believe that either Harry or Hermione has totally "platonic" feelings for the other, but as they've never discussed their feelings with each other, there was no way for them to know. In my mind, Hermione was in love with Harry during OotP, but drew back from him during HBP, especially when she saw how hot to trot he was for Ginny. Like a good best friend, she wanted him to be happy. Harry has never been fully conscious of how he feels about Hermione; if JKR really wanted their relationship to be strictly sibling-like she should not have written him pulling Hermione along with him in the DoM, or falling on his knees and being unable to think when she was struck down there. What she's written is a boy who doesn't understand how he feels, sees his two best friends sparring for years, assumes they'll get together and, because he doesn't want to lose the friendship of either, never examines his own feelings. When he finally does say how he feels about Hermione, he hasn't thought about it, he just blurts it out - and he has never asked how she felt. So yeah, Padfoot, I agree about H/Hr having a tragic love. What separated them in the end was their belief that the other would be happier with someone else. Notice that we never see Ron and Hermione or Harry and Ginny say "I love you." That really gave me a hollow feeling about the romances; at least your essay has shown how the true, deep male/female relationship in HP has always been H/Hr

*snorts* Maybe so.

The fact that JKR harped on "the EMMA twist" in interviews was part of what led many of us to believe she was going to write H/Hr. She had it set up pretty well - Harry as Emma, Hermione as Mr. Knightley, Ron as Harriet -- it could have worked, especially if JKR had actually had Harry examine his feelings. But she had her OBHWF ending written years ago, so I guess she never planned to try for the Emma twist herself

Throwing knives and rocks at the OBHWF signs.

As much as I think JKR is a great story teller and has a wonderful imagination for plot and adventure, I really think she's pants at romance. I really wouldn't give her credit for creating the Greatest Platonic Relationship of All Time. I think she screwed that up--and basically screwed up the romance. I tend to think she really did intend for the Ron+Hermione romance to be comedic, and I suppose she would've succeeded in that with HHr fans like that if we--well, didn't fancy Harry and Hermione getting together so much.

What way? It was never said that he was drooling. Let's separate interpretation and what was actually written. Yes, it is nice to imagine that there is an admiration in Harry's eyes when he saw Hermione changed, but in fact there was just a clinical list of differences. Harry never even commented on Hermione looking pretty after he recognized her. And before that - what was it worth? He mentioned other girls being VERY pretty in the same chapter. So just another unfamiliar pretty girl with Krum is not much, you must agree. We read too much in his jaw dropping, forgetting that the surprise of recognizing Hermione in Krum's partner was plenty a reason to drop a jaw. It was never said that he dropped a jaw because of intence admiration. I think I actually like the idea of platonic friendship being stonger than a romantic attraction.

Stan, who are you trying to kid? You're not an H/Hr shipper. Clearly that was exaggeration on mystiquefire's part. No need to take it so seriously and try to argue with something being obviously magnified. You seem to do this on EVERY thread you post on. Yes, Harry described other girls like Cho as pretty too, but does that take away from the fact that he found Hermione attractive? No, it doesn't. Brotherly-sisterly relationship? I think not. And frankly, I would have found it a little suspicious had Harry continuously mentioned Hermione was pretty during the Ball after the jaw-dropping scene. She looked the same, she wasn't changing outfits or looks, so we ALREADY KNOW he found her attractive. Must he repeat in his thoughts she looked pretty several other times that night? How overbearing would that be, honestly?

Thank you!

Bloody hell, I’d give anything to have a brother who’s impressed by the simple things I do! I’d be amazed if my brother even considers me intelligent, let alone is impressed by that alleged intelligence and even goes so far as to defend (repeatedly) my brains and ideas and loyalty from the attacks of his girlfriend…

Hermione’s such a lucky sister. I’m green with envy, I tell you!

Pg 435


Again, did Ron vanish somewhere along the way? Is he not good enough to be asked to do the spell instead? For all the attention they give him, the poor guy might as well have flown to Japan.


Pg 437


Because Hermione, a woman who has been in plenty of dangerous situations and done hundreds of risky things, needs help climbing up an oblivious dragon’s back.

But this doesn’t surprise me: it just reinforces what we’ve known since POA and OOTP: that Hermione is always willing to depend on Harry physically, and without even thinking, he instinctively reaches to help her whenever possible. It’s PELT and a bit of HUTKAFHH. They compensate for each other’s weaknesses, work in perfect tandem.


Pg 441


When Hermione doesn’t protect them, Harry does. And Ron? Again, wiped off the slate. After the hundreds of times they’ve done this, doesn’t he know the spells as well? Why doesn’t he do it, ever, that we see?


Pg 449


If ever we poor, delusional idiots needed evidence that Harry is in love with Ginny and his happiest memories are of her, well, here it is.

----------------


Haha! Your bloody hilarious! The "Expecto patronum" quote is by far the best! You could really think why isn't Ginny in his mind when he does it?
Oh, right. She almost never in his mind. Except when he thinks of her looks...

Thanks alot Padfoot! You rock!
Harry/Hermione forever! (Brother/Sister my ass!)
Ray~

Anyway...platonic friends don't usually pay that much attention to each other's appearance. Intimate girlfriends might, but not 14-year-old-boys.
Harry is worried that he’ll mess up on the dance floor; he still hasn’t figured out the clue; and Cho is with Cedric. Yet he has time to distinctly notice every detail about Hermione’s hair, her teeth, her dress, her expression, and the different way she holds herself. I don’t see a paragraph referring to the appearance of his current crush Cho or his-future wife Ginny. Whether you ship H/Hr or not Harry’s “checking her out”.

The books are in Harry’s point of view and JKR could have described Hermione the same way but it didn’t have to make Harry’s jaw drop. Even GoF movie included this scene. IMO the scene parallels the typical geeky-girl-turned-beautiful, leading their love interest to have an epiphany. Scenes like that do not show platonic love, it shows attraction.

I hadn't noticed it before replying that xCarpeDiem already made my point (thanks)

I think that in GoF, I never once thought Harry's thoughts of Hermione were anything but platonic. Seriously. Like I said once before, GoF sealed the deal for me as far as RHr went. I was still in denial that Harry would like Ginny, and I really thought he had more of a future with Cho at that point. I was, however, surprised at how much RHr took a back seat (like way back) to HHr in OotP.

In my opinion, JKR's Hermione and Harry got away from her in OotP. I don't even know if I sound like a biased shipper saying this, but I'll tell you--I was FULLY expecting RHr in OotP. I almost wanted it; just to get it over with, you know? I got highly irritated when RHr didn't happen in OotP, not because I was a Heron (like, right) but because the continuity got screwed up from my perspective. And then Harry and Hermione got all "We're in this together!" and Hermione was actually kick-ass fab. It was cool, maybe, but in the back of my mind, I was thinking that something was a little off. Perhaps I already felt that shots were being fired for nothing. And it's probably why I didn't like OotP. Yes, I didn't like it. I thought there was something mightily off with it, and most especially because my nightmares of Harry and Ginny getting together were coming true in this book. I did see it, and I hated it, because I truly hate HG.

So here comes HBP. Apart from hating the ships and hating Ginny--like, ten times more, I liked HBP. It wasn't Harry's book; it was Voldemort and Dumbledore's book, as far as I was concerned, and I think maybe I liked that a lot. Must be the evil in me laughing maniacally. I was slightly disappointed that Voldemort wasn't a scarier child. He was a bully, but he could've been creepier, like Hannibal Lecter, or something. Haha. And of course, in the end, Snape became deliciously more ambiguous, and Dumbly died, and Harry was a retard, and it was overall a really, really good finish.

Overall, as much as people screamed "OOC!!!!" with Hermione, and perhaps even with Harry, I thought HBP put them back on track where JKR lost them in OotP. She really screwed that one up. That's possibly where I got a little annoyed with JKR--especially when I realized she seemed to enjoy fueling the ship wars. Whatever.

I like my OTP more than HG and RHr, but I think OotP was the only exception as far as the way Harry looked at Hermione, and JKR suffered (or maybe she didn't) her mistakes with us measley HHr fans.

Then my friends and I have been hanging around some pretty strange boys all our lives.

In my experience, and my friends' experience, even a purely platonic boy friend will notice if a formally-frumpy gal friend gets all glammed up. They won't obsess about it like the girl's gal friends will, but they'll notice.

I really didn't see H/Hr in that scene. I've read enough "He suddenly realized how pretty she was and how much he was attracted to her" scenes in my life to know one when I see it.

Ok can we please keep this thread on topic. This is Harry and Hermione in DH. Lets not have this turn into a debate thread.

All of her kids so far have been named by Harry. It appears that they still have time for at least one more -- or two or three (remember that Molly had seven altogether). Maybe at least one of these will be named after a Weasley. And I'm not sure about a set of twins, but what if one of these later kids was named Fred (or Frederica)?

Even if Jo hadn't confirmed this, I would figure that George had claim over "Fred."

But is she really? Someone here asked in a post why we thought JKR could write H/Hr better than OBHWF. I've been trying to find that post so I could respond. I'll answer that question here. JKR can write a H/Hr better than OBHWF because she's been doing for the first 5 books, and even in HBP and DH. The Godric's Hollow chapter is the culmination of H/HR's romance. All the H/G and R/Hr scenes combined fade into triviality, nothingness, in comparison to the depth and breath of the feeling beetween Harry and Hermione. I saw 2 people who were so emotionally and physically close that they had crossed over into romantic love. . All that is needed is for them to acknowledge it to each other. In my imagination, that chapter ends with Harry and Hermione at the kissing gate. Harry turns to Hermione and just says her name. Hermione reads Harry's feelings in his eyes and says simply: " I know Harry. Me too." That's it, that's all. No chest monster. No snogfest. Just love.

highlighted part is soooooo Michael & Sara in Prison Break! Yay!

sorry... OT... can't help it!

She is pants at it, because she already wrote an HHr romance yet she didn't want to--she called it platonic and called HG the romance of the century. I'll let her slide with RHr, since she was going more for comedy with that, but HHr could've been great--she just didn't think they would make a good couple.

She has proven nothing to me in terms of romance. She has complete freedom to disprove me, but at this moment, I'm thoroughly unimpressed.

I've been reading your essay's Padfoot. I found them interesting, even if I found much of it stretching. Maybe that's because I accepted H/Hr wasn't going to happen after HBP came out. I was able to enjoy DH much more not concentrating on shipping stuff, because there really wasn't all that much of it. Plus my greatest fear of the book didn't come true - the almighty Ginny tagging along and saving everything.

Anyway, one thought kept running through my mind for most of your essay and another in your conclusion why H/Hr didn't happen.

First, you say Hermione gave up on Harry. And that just doesn't ring true to me of Hermione's character. When has she ever given up on something? The founder of SPEW, fighter for house-elf rights? How can she be both so loyal to him and give up on him? That just doesn't ring true of the Hermione I read about all these years/books.

And then I read your conclusion and wonder if you know you basically contradict your whole argument with it? In your conclusion you state the following reasons why H/Hr didn't happen...




It is reason 1 that you contradict your whole essay with. Because H/Hr cared more about Ron? Just a little before that you gave this statement...




Your conclusion voids this, doesn't it? You basically say both Harry and Hermione put Ron in front of the other. Harry cares more about Ron's happiness than both his own and potentially Hermione's? Without talking about it with her? Same for Hermione? Which as a Harry/Ron shipper second and knowing that wasn't going to happen either, still gives me warm fuzzies, but doesn't seem to help the argument you put forth IMO.

Like I said, I accepted H/Hr was sunk before DH came out. Maybe I was able to enjoy the book more that way. All I had to do was ignore one scene at the beginning and well, the epilogue I actually am too disgusted by Albus Serverus to even think of reading that again. And as I have always been a fan of the Trio and wanted the last book to be about them, I was happy to get that. I tried to read your essay and see it that way but my mind kept going but then... for much of it. I wasn't going to argue everything though because there were parts I agreed with. Like I said, but the Hermione characterization doesn't ring true to me and your first reason in your conclusion contradicts everything you've been saying by saying in the end Harry and Hermione both put Ron first.

Well if Hermione did give up on Harry, I wouldnt be suprised. This isnt her just giving up on "something", Its another person. This other person is attracted to girls who are completly unlike her. She would be seeing happiness in his eyes when she sees him with these other girls. A smart girl like her would not waste her time on trying to get this guy to like her, since she knows he doesnt see her in that way. (At least thats what she thinks)

I don't think Hermione gave up on Harry. That would be silly of Hermione. It would be wholly OOC of her to do so. She really just did prefer Ron from the beginning. Her whole number on Harry could be attributed to her own sense of obligation--plus she really is a great friend.

You understand that I wouldn't be saying these things if DH wasn't the last book. I'm not happy with the facts, but I'm not inclined to make up theories like the ones about love potions when HBP came out.

It's a preference, mind you. I'm letting the canon-shipping effort go and I'm moving on. JKR never dreamed of HHr. These theories are great for fanfiction. I can't think of it as canon.

I guess JKR just mistook teenage hormones for true love and true love for platonic affections. It was there mind you, but she didnt label it effectively.

ocnsidreing that hermione knows harry better then anyone, could problebly read him like a open book.
if she belived that if harry is happy with ginny nad it makes him happy she would not do anything to mess it up.
she made her paretns forget about her so she could be with harry every step in the way to fisnish old voldie off.
even if it was to give up a posible romantic relationship or any lingering feelings she had for him that could had developme more then deep frienship.

she is with him on basicly any major event in his life.
getting in a the way of happyness and him getting a "normal" life or as normal harry´s life could be due of his past will be would be the last thing she would do.
everything she has done has been for harry benefit in the end.

If that's true, and she gave up on him so easily, than why do you ship H/Hr at all? If that's the truth, than she's obviously never been so in love with Harry in the first place! Where's Hermione we all grew to love here? She becomes nothing more than a coward with this theory. Isn't Harry worth fighting for? That's just so... wrong.

Sorry I was adressing spikefan. I was speaking hypothetically.

Oh btw I do agree with rodrigo. It wouldnt be the first time Hermione gave up her own happiness for Harry's sake. Im thinking the firebolt incident mainly.

That's the conclusion I've had to come to. Like it or not, JKR had a different vision than many when it came to her story and I had to accept it, especially after HBP. I never bought into the love potions theory either then and I guess that's why I can't buy into the Hermione would give up on Harry if she really loved him. It's too OOC for me - Hermione doesn't give up on anything. (Except divination. ) I've just had to accept that in the world JKR wrote, Hermione didn't love Harry in that way. Now AU fanfiction, that's another story and thank goodness for it, eh?



That's why I can't accept this theory, that's not Hermione. I applaud Padfoot for the essay(s), but I can't accept the reasoning behind it because of what it does to Hermione's character.

Counting on it, in fact. AU is my mantra these days.

after rowling killed of OOTP Hermione to make place for HBP hermione it´s posible.
OOTP hermione would never allowed that to happend, she would put up one hell of a fight , but HBP Hermione would do that after JKR rewrote her.

The actual truth is that we really dont know for sure how she could have felt. Is it possible that she did love him? Yes. Is it possible that she didnt? Yes. Is it possible that she gave up her feelings for Harry? Yes. Is it possible she only had eyes for Ron? Yes. There are signs that point both ways, maybe some are stronger than the other. But its our perspectives in the end right?

This story wasnt written from Hermione's point of view so its not fair say that she felt a certain way for a FACT. I personally like to think she did have stronger feelings for Harry than what let on. But I dont know what she really felt and neither does anyone else. Its safe to assume something, but not to state as fact.