Pls read this admin note. Thanks. ~gal-texter 14Apr2008


...but I've been wanting to ask this question since I got to Portkey...

Why did you come to Portkey?

Now like I said, don't take this the wrong way... I think everyone that has read my posts can vouch that I am a very fair and generally non-judgemental person...

I'm not suggesting you leave, but I am honestly really curious as to why you belong to one of the biggest pro-Harmony websites if you do not even like Harmony...?

I've heard accusations from some of my more hot-tempered fellow Harmonians, that the only reason that you are here is to gloat.

I do not want to believe this.

I have had some very interesting discussions with some of you and I enjoyed them very much.

But I do find it disturbing that it seems like Portkey is becoming a debate website... Its really not supposed to be.

Its supposed to be Pro-Harmony. Period.

If you want to debate ships... there are plenty neutral sites out there... TLC and MN are supposed to be neutral...

So why did you sign up on PK?

The fanfiction?

Just to argue?

So please, if you could be as kind as to explain this phenomenon to my confused mind.... It would be much appreciated....

Thank you in advance,

GuardianMedic


***************************************************************

To any Harmonians who read this thread.... Please do not respond to it.... However much you may want to.

I know some of you guys and gals feel very passionately about this subject, but this is a place for non-Harmonians to explain.

Not for the two groups to argue.

OK?

Thank you.

I'm sure every non-Harmonian has been PM'd this question by many members. Each seeking to know what's the point of us being here. I ask, why not? There are good essays, good fan fiction, good art, and relatively good debates when it doesn't go all childish. In all the times I've been asked why I am here, I have neglected to ask why this site has a debate and discussion section if all ships aren't welcome to participate. (I am not accusing you of saying we aren't welcome. I think you are quite fair)

I'm going to talk HP as long as someone is willing to respond. I don't always want to discuss HP with folks who agree with me. It's nice, but it isn't always entertaining. Just look at the FA SCUSA threads. They actually bore me to tears.
And I've never said I didn't like H/Hr. Some of my favorite fiction involves the two of them. I think fanon does a better job with the pair as I don't feel they are compatible as written in the 7 books.

When I want to chat, I post in debate or book discussion. I have posted in the strictly H/Hr portion, but it's always a positive thing about H/Hr.


What is the purpose of a debate or discussion forum if not to actually debate and discuss?

You're right about the debating thing...

It just seems like everytime a debate starts, it always turns to who's ship is better... Sometimes the Harmonians are guilty of this but there are quite a few incidents where it was the non-harmonians...

If you come here to debate, lets not debate ships...


and BTW, thank you hhrwatcher... You're the only non-Harmonian who responded to my question...

Did I say something wrong?

I disagree. I love debates, and I think they are perfectly fine. As long as people are respectful and don't bash posters, a good debate can be fun. I'm glad you guys are here, personally.

Sad. She was the only Heron replied and now she's gone following an incident or maybe more precisely FIASCO at Dueling Club...

What happened? When I went there two days ago, it seemed both sides were jumping on each other and being nasty. What exactly was going on?

Just read at the debate thread Hermione from books 1-5 vs 6-7 at The Dueling Club, maybe at page 4-7... I must admit that I was involved and lost control a bit, but I think after I read my posts overall it was alright. I think she must felt being offended by some of our posts, after we were offended by some of the other Herons' posts. But overall, it's a bad incident and we should try not to let things like those happened anymore here.

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

Yes, but... where's the fun in that?

Fine... lets not get along...


But at least lets not bite each other's heads off... (as funny looking as that would be )

because do not see eye to eye with us and they are here to disagree with us.

So every person that disagrees with you is the enemy?

I'm sorry but do you realize how immature that sounds?

I've disagreed with TONS of people in my life some of it was stupid and some of it serious life changing events. the thing is most of them are my friends and family.

Can't we move on? please?

But to be fair, isn't shipping the only thing, for the most part, we don't agree on? Why would you need to come to Portkey to find people who disagree about Snape or the Marauder's or Petunia and Dudley or anything else that could be debated? Can't that be done elsewhere? I'm not trying to be rude at all, please don't take it that way. I just don't understand the reasoning. Shipping aside, I'd say I agree with Herons on a lot of things.

Exactly, so why can't we talk to non-Harmonians who want to talk to us here?

They are (at least most of them) not here to simply disagree with us. They are here to talk. Is it such a big problem for Harmonians to talk to non-Harmonians, and vice versa?

YES. That's the point. As much as I'd love to say we can all get along and be civil, it just isn't the case. Shipping runs too deep and we've had to endure to much at the other's hands. There will always be snide comments, hurt feelings, etc. That is why we have our own sites, yes? I sure as Hell don't go to Sugar Quills and chat up H/Hr. I'm sorry to say, but time has proven that the animosity of the shipping wars has caused too much pain. I'm sure, with a lot of time, we'll move past that. BUT, that will never happen if we can't have time to heal, freely, without constantly having those wounds ripped open. That's what upsets me. Let us grieve, let us heal.

I think I'll continue this through PMs... this thread was for the non-Harmonians to answer... not for us to comment. At least that was my original intent...

I felt I should reply as it's a valid question. I have participated on these boards for a couple of years now and I like to talk characterization. It isn't necessary to get into shipping wars to talk about what I like or don't like about a character. I have started one thread this whole time and it was to ask about Hermione. Is she so different in the last two books to be recognizable? That doesn't have to have anything to do with shipping.
I could do it elsewhere, but I've been here for a long time. I used to actually like being here. But the recent climate has been too warmongering. I'm just a person like anyone else. But I have been reduced to 'the enemy'. Que sera

Necessary? No. Probable? Yes.

It may be sad, but it is true (I'm a realist). I do wish we could all get along and talk about everything that doesn't have to do with shipping, but doesn't it seem it always falls back into that rut? *sigh* I'm guilty of it so I really can't blame anyone else... and I'm one of the older members and a Mod. I still chalk it up to the pain that runs so deep between the ships (or I just use that to rationalize my feelings). Hopefully, one day, we'll build a bridge. But, to be honest, I just think it's too early.

Thank you for answering, though

*pokes head out from under rock*

Normally I post at Sycophant Hex forums, but since they are adults only, it's slow there once the books have been out for more than a month or two. I don't ship H/Hr and I really don't ship R/Hr either. I was attracted to the books because of the wonderfully imaginative storyline and rich universe that went with it. Who was going to end up together wasn't on my list of reasons to read the books. I had no vested interest in the final pairings, and I've had an It-Is-What-It-Is attitude toward that outcome.

As to why I came to Portkey... this just happened to be one of the sites that came up in my google search. So I kind of arrived here by accident. It was a good accident because I've met some wonderful people like Adament Eve, Salamon2, and JBaker (who seems to have fallen off the face of the earth.)

I understand your pain. I'm a Snape fan, and you all know how that turned out.



I couldn't agree with you more. There are plenty of things in the books to discuss that have nothing to do with shipping. DH gave us plot holes the size of the Grand Canyon to fill in and pick over. But I noticed that tthose threads are the ones with few or no posts under them. Just like we are more than Harmonians, Herons, Chocos, Snilies and whatever, HP is more than who marries who and they made babies.

In all honesty I hated the epilogue because it put a limit on the creativity of what was still to come but that's just my stupid little non-shipper opinion.

*hugs to all*

My story is kind of the same as Lady Whitehart's. Several years ago, my family had just gotten the Internet and I had just discovered the thrills of online discussion. At first I just joined H/G-R/Hr groups and general HP groups that didn't care much about shipping, but then on IMDb I started participating in the shipping debates on the HP boards and had a lot of fun with it. (This was in 2004, long before HBP and the IoD, when we were still allowed to state facts without worrying that we might be gloating.) It wasn't just about defending my ships, it was about being forced to think about the other side so that I could address it, and rethinking the books and the way I saw them. Debating HP ships online was really the only outlet I had for my passion for both shipping and debating. I don't do that well when I debate in person--I mean, sometimes, I guess, depends how much thought I've devoted to the topic, but for example, once my friend told me she was pro-abortion and I could tell she wanted a good debate, because we were at work and bored. Though I have a strong opinion on the topic, my words came out shaky and it seriously sounded like I was about to cry even though I wasn't, and I found myself avoiding her eyes and forgetting what I wanted to say; I felt like we were arguing even though I knew it was just an impersonal debate. So the best way for me to debate is in writing. Pathetically, it also happens that HP is one of the few popular topics I'm well-informed enough about to want to debate--I mean, all the facts are right there in the books--and shipping is one of the few topics within HP that I'm actually interested in debating. Most everything else fans debate is too clear-cut and impersonal, but when you're talking about shipping, it is open to interpretation, not about what happened, but about why you love your ship and why you feel it is right. You can say, "This is what happened. Period," but you can't say, "R/Hr is the better relationship. Period," or "H/Hr is better. Period." You have to say what makes you think like you do, and I enjoy that.

Anyway. So I liked online ship debates. When I got bored of everyone agreeing with me on pretty much all my other groups (or else ignoring me, on huge boards like CoSForums where so much is being said you have to say something really earth-shattering or controversial to get people to notice), I typed in something about ship debates in a search engine and was directed to the Dueling Club here. I didn't know it was an H/Hr site. I registered, and then I saw it was an H/Hr site. I thought I must've been mistaken in there being a debating forum where Herons were welcome, so I left right away. According to my join date, that was September 2004 (one of the reasons I have this stupid username--I'd just read a Bruce Coville book about unicorns and Cloudmane was one of those stupid unicorns).

After DH, H/Hr shippers had all but disappeared from the fandom so I came back here just to read your comments. Obviously it wouldn't let me see the book discussion, so I halfheartedly tried this username and my usual password. I didn't expect it to actually let me in; I thought my membership would've expired from lack of use or something. But it worked, so I started reading comments and I saw some from Herons. As far as I could see, no one was telling them they weren't allowed, so I figured it would be okay for me to post as long as I kept it to the book discussion and debating forums. And I must say I've come to enjoy it. For the most part, I like you guys and I've found that a lot of Harmonians are pretty nice. I know it's not my site, I don't consider myself a real member, I know I'm a (unwelcome) guest. If I'm not allowed to be here, or if I break the rules, I'll leave; I have no desire to post in a negative environment. I'm not here to change anyone's belief or make anyone feel like I have a problem with them; I'm here because there's not many sites where differing ships can argue equally. (By the way...does anyone know any others? Because I'd join them and leave you guys alone if that's what you want.)

(Did not mean that to be so long, but that's what forums are for.)

One of the things I don't even understand is why are there even debates about anything to do with shipping? Like it or not, the pairings are what they are and debating shipping issues seems like a pointless exercise in frustration. What is there even to debate? Rowling wrote her story the way she wanted it written. Her books, her choice. I respect your right to prefer H/Hr over H/G, but to continue beating the proverbial dead horse causes nothing but high blood pressure and hurt feelings in the end.

Do I agree with every single thing that went to print? Not at all! There were so many things I would have done differently, the biggest one being I would have shown more than the extended camping trip from hell. There was so much more going on than the Trio/Duo/Trio freezing their collective butts off in that stupid tent, and we missed out on it.

Why not give us a chapter or two concerning life at the school? A look at Neville & Co.'s resistance movement? For that matter, devote some page time to Ginny missing Harry. Why not give a few pages from Ron's point of view after he left? Maybe it wouldn't have made the final pairs agreeable to everyone, but there wouldn't have been that stupid 19 year gap between the end of the story and the epilogue.

What were the Order members doing all this time? Was anyone trying to find a way to overthrow the New Ministry or were people just waiting for the return of The-Boy-Who-Disappeared-Like-A-######-In-The-Wind?

As to allowing non H/Hr shippers to post on the site, that is something for the admins to decide. I like Portkey. I read your fics, view your art, and enjoy what the site has to offer. Yes, it is possible to appreciate H/Hr and R/L even if it isn't your preference. So if I haven't overstayed my welcome, I would like to keep my account.

I know that we were asked not to respond but I don't plan on arguing with anyone so...

I'm responding!

I just wanted to say that I am quite happy to have some of our Heron friends apart of our site. For the most part I think the majority of them are nice and respectful.

should they be allowed to stay? I don't see how we could live with ourselves if we started booting people out now simply by choice of ship. That seems a bit callous and unfriendly to me not to mention sort of...rude. Do I wonder why some of them still come here? of course. Do I understand their need to seek us out? not really because honestly I don't go to Heron or chocolate websites. Haven't since HBP actually so no I don't understand but that doesn't mean I think they should leave. I actually enjoy talking to a good lot of you. We are all just people afterall arn't we? I mean I don't kick my real life R/Hr friends out of my apartment because of their ship and I still talk with them, have lunch with them, go to parties with them...The are my friends. Seems kind of silly to do that to forum friends don't you think?

There now I've said my peace

But, that is the precise reason why we need PK. We don't want to debate it, we want to sit in our delusional little bubble and pretend it never happened. It's human nature to want to guard yourself against pain, right? If people disagree with it and think we're mislead or wrong, fine, but don't come here and tell us so(I'm not referring to you). Why can't we have a site to ourselves? Why should we have to face the reality of OBHWF? Why can't we come here and read FF, look at fanart and discuss H/Hr w/o being berated? That's absolutely ridiculous. I would NEVER go to a R/Hr forum if it had ended Harmony. I think it is mean, spiteful and just plain horrid, to be honest. Again, not directed to you because you've never, since I've been at PK, been anything but nice and witty :and I've always enjoyed your posts.



I don't think it has anything to do with what someone's shipping preference is, to be honest. If people like R/Hr with all their heart, that's perfectly fine. Just don't come here, throw on the little heron avatars and siggies and debate why H/Hr is wrong, wrong, WRONG. That's the problem I have. When I feel cornered, stupid or immature about my shipping preference (especially when it is a H/Hr website for crying out loud) is when I get upset. When I have to defend myself, when I clearly shouldn't, I get heated.

We're not hurting anyone, so why should people come here (to OUR site) and try to hurt us? I think it's indecent.

The thing is, there are plenty of H/Hr shippers who love to debate or to read debates. I think it is a great idea to have a part of the site dedicated to that. Most other sites have little or no debating.

I have no problems with OBHWF shippers being here, as long as they stay in the debate section. They should stay out of the specific ship sections if they are only going to argue. That way, we can have the discussion and debate, and at the same time we can have our own section for just our own ships.

Thus, my views are that we keep the debate section and the non-H/Hr shippers for the most part stay there.

Oops! Either you misunderstood me or more likely I'm misunderstanding you. What I meant was why are there even threads in the debate forum that are concerned with the Trio? When I saw some of the titles, I had visions of bombs going off because some of them were a can of worms waiting to be opened. Why not debate something like, I don't know, Could the Ministry have been kept from falling? Something like that has nothing to do with shipping, and if a poster tried to drag shipping into it, then you know they're looking for trouble. I guess what I'm suggesting is either consider having a stipulation that debate topics need to be general or close the debate forum.

If you remember, after HBP was released, Snape fans took a lot of ###### and rightly so. Still waiting on that shaved eyebrow picture from that SH ex-admin. Believe me when I say you have my sympathy. Of course, now we're divided into those that believe Snape was a true Death Eater and those that believe that Snape NEVER controlled/killed/tortured anyone before he AK'ed Dumbledore, which brings new dimension to 'delusional' IMO. And I digress....

Glad to hear I can be entertaining. Like I've said, I appreciate your right to love your ship, and I understand WHY you still love it. Portkey has some wonderful fics and artwork of quality that can be appreciated no matter who you ship.




And I agree with you. It's no different than people trying to convert others to their religion. Diversity is a beautiful thing.

In defense of my avatar, I'm NOT a Heron. I was hoping for Hermione with Krum or even Percy (don't ask), but poor Krum's cameo was nothing more than info-dump and a lame attempt at comic relief. Oh well.



I was always under the impression that the ship specific threads were 'off limits' to non-shippers to begin with. I look into James/Lily every now and again, but for the most part I stay out of them. Glory to Thy Ship practically shouts "unless you love XYZ don't post!" But like I said before I don't see why debates can't be kept to general topics. I'm sure we could come up with some if we tried.




I just noticed something, someone in a war zone created this topic to try to bring about a sense of understanding a peace. Many blessings to you, Guardian Medic. Stay safe.

LMAO. If I don't know that by now then I need some help I wasn't talking about yours. As a Mod, I guess I see a lot more than anyone else. Trust me, I've had to warn people, and even delete avvies due to breaking the rules. I've always loved your avatar. Very appropriate, good comic relief.

As to everything else, I absolutely agree with you.

To star22 - yes, they should be free to roam and discuss in the DC section, BUT that doesn't mean they can debate H/Hr. That is off limits, period. I don't mind them being there if they want to talk about other subjects. It's only when H/Hr is brought up that I get upset.

Isn't the debate section all about debating, whatever the topic is. I have no problem with R/Hr vs. H/Hr debates. If they are done in a civil manor on both sides, they can be fun.

If you don't like debates, stay out of the debate section. That is what it is there for. It has been set up so those who like having discussions and debates with people of opposing views can have fun there. Personally, I like hearing what other views have to say. When there are debates in other places like FA, they get so nasty. The debates here have for the most part been relatively nice.

I don't mind debating, I actually enjoy it. My point, though, is that we don't need to debate our shipping. There is no point, no reason and no good outcome in that. And, let's get real, even in the most non-shipping of threads, it gets brought up... a lot. I've had it personally thrown in my face multiple times (even when I don't even mention it and/or it has nothing to do with the topic at hand). I don't understand why it's necessary for people to come to a site where it is plain and clear what the theme is, and try and debunk it, change people, or just be hurtful..

I don't go to a religious site that I don't agree with and say that they're wrong or delusional. I wouldn't go to an Alcoholics Anonymous site and yell at them for ruining their lives, and the lives of others. I wouldn't go to a Gay/Lesbian site and promote heterosexual choices. Is this extreme? Yes. But, it's still common decency and polite to not do that. I don't see why it's an issue. There are SO many other sites to talk about us behind our backs, why slap us in the face? Go to Mugglenet or Leaky if you want to trash us.

Again, for the Herons, I'm not saying everyone does this, or that you shouldn't be allowed. I'm saying the debating of our ship should not be an option.

That's the part I agree with.




That's part of the reason why I changed from my original avatar. It turned out to be canon that Snape loved Lily, and since SS/LE is not allowed, I changed it before people started coming after me with knives, torches and pitchforks. Even being an obvious non-shipper, some people still call me a Heron. But... I am not a Heron; I am a pink flamingo!* Maybe I should rethink that tattoo.

* For those of you who don't recognize the quote, it's a modification from the movie The Elephant Man when Merrick says to a mob "I am NOT an animal; I am a human being!"

I liked your old avatar, but changing it was probably a good idea (yikes). Snape/Lily ended up being about my favorite (canon) part of the entire series! Wonder if I should go into the J/L thread and cause a stink, LOL.

You naughty little monkey!

I still use it; just not here. It probably wouldn't violate the rules because it wasn't a romantic pairing, but there's no sense in looking for trouble. I did like the fact that Severus and Lily were friends for such a long time.

ADMIN NOTE:

Hi all, I've been lurking on this and its sister thread a few weeks ago (when I returned to PK and the fandom). But I waited until I got my admin badge, so the mod team could do more about these issues. That time has come, so I'm moving this now to the Site-Wide Help Desk, okay?

To all non-H/H shippers who've been visiting Portkey, we'd like to hear your thoughts, too.

- Pen / gal-texter

Hi. I'm a Heronian, and HHr is my One True Hate where shipping is concerned; it ranks up there with The Iraq War in something I cannot understand as being a good idea. So why am I here? Two short words (or three depending how you pronounce it):

DRACO/GINNY.

This has become my OTP, much as I like OBHWF, and here is just about the only place where I can discuss them to my heart's content, without even encountering excessive H/G hate (because over there everybody saves their ranting about that for the HHR forums). Ah. Does that make sense?

I'm actually a nonshipper, but I'm here because, to be honest, I'm pretty much bored with how insular the various factions of fandom have become. You never see anyone outside of your group. I miss friendly discussion, and since you *do* allow debate and discussion here (unlike other shipping sites), I came here.

I will admit to having a soft spot for Draco/Ginny.

I am also a non-shipper. I have never been particularly interested in how the romances turned out in canon because I felt that they were irrelevant subplots. Fun, but not important. I actually managed to be fairly active in the fandom since OotP came out without even being aware of the "shipping wars". (I generally hung around in places where shipping was not discussed.) Since DH came out, I have been browsing through parts of the fandom that I had previously avoided and found out about the animosity between shippers. That lead me here.

I poke around here, not because I like H/Hr, (I don't. I dislike Hermione and love Harry, so I don't really care for the idea of them together. But hey, whatever floats your boat.) but because it's one of the few active discussion sites left and it is interesting to see what others have to say. I am actually amazed at how differently so many others saw the books than I did. It's interesting to read other viewpoints. Sometimes I'm a little turned off by all the negativity, but I'll continue to hang around until something shiny catches my attention.

That's true, I was enjoying the "Why do people dislike Ron, Ginny or the Weasleys thread" until it got nasty. I like them and so do my fellow HP fans in RL. So I was rather surprised (but not offended) that some of our PK-mates disliked them. It's nice to hear other people's views as long as they're given respectfully and without attempting to convert you to their own views.

Our next project is to clean up the non-shippy / general HP sections, btw.

All right, we've started revamping those sections. Can I have your thoughts about the debate forums, please? Thanks.

- Pen

My thoughts are that they are great, but they do need to be monitered. Fans on all sides need to be encouraged to play nice. Bashing of any kind or nasty language needs warnings. Non-H/Hr fans need to be civil, but we do as well. I think that if the forums can be kept civil and friendly, they are great fun. I don't post very much, but I quite enjoy reading all the opinions.