I've been thinking about this for a while. Why DOES petunia hate Lily? We've never really been told about Lilys life and I really want to know what caused petunias hatred.
Is it because she likes all thinks normal, jelousy of Lilys magic or did both of them dislike eachother from when they were little?

Love to hear all your views.

~*~Karen~*~

Maybe because Lily family was half and half and Petunia was jelous because Lily became a witch and she didn't

I agree, HpFreak. I always thought that Petunia was acting out of jealousy. I don't know about the half and half part...Wouldn't that mean Petunia was a squib? Or that one of Lily's parents was magically-inclined? I dunno...I also thought that it could have stemmed from sort of incident that happened. Like maybe Petunia was attacked or humiliated or something like that...it would be enough to make me mad! (Well, not really, but some people work like that)
~Batgirl

This is a question that I hope is answered in OOTP. It just seems odd that Lilly and Petunia's parents were so happy to have a witch in the family if they were nothing but muggles. Granted, it may be exciting for a muggle family to suddenly realize that there realy is such a thing as magic, but you have got to think that parents would be very concerned, since they wouldn't know anything at all about the magical world.

Or it could simply be that Petunia is jealous of Lilly. I read in a fic once where Voldemort killed Petunia's and Lilly's mother and father and Petunia blamed Lilly for the death. This could very well be the reason she hates lilly so much, but I find it odd that she didn't mention that when she was going on her little rampage at the "Hut on the Rock, the Sea". Which brings up another question...what happen to Harry's Grandparents? This could very well be one of the questions that Harry gets answered in OOTP. JK did say that Harry would find out some things that he had never asked about before, just seems right that this would be one of them.

Just seems Harry is dense, or maybe just to busy to think of these things. Of course, he may still have it ingrained in himself to "Not ask questions". Any normal person would have immeditaly asked Sirius not only about his parents but about his grandparents as well. Of course this is difficult for Harry since 1) he has been told most of his life to not ask questions and 2) Sirius is on the run and has never really had a chance to sit down and talk to Harry. But then again, that leaves Dumbledore to ask or for that matter any of the Professor's who would at least be able to tell him about the Potter family if not Lilly's.

This is the main reason that I think there is something very large about one of those family's history that will play a significant role in the future books. And no, I do not think Lilly Evens was ever, in any way shape or form a Death Eater. I just have a hard time thinking Hagrid would of liked Lilly so much if she was a former Death Eater, same with Minerva, and we learned that those two cared a great deal about James and Lilly from the first chapter of HPPS/SS.

So to sum up we have a boy who has always been told to not ask questions by his realitives, but has learned through four years of schooling at Hogwarts, that he can indeed ask questions and recieve answers (although here again, Dumbledore not telling him what he should of told him at the end of HPPS/SS may have made Harry think that he wasn't supposed to ask questions here either). Now from quotes from JK we find out that Harry will find out some things that he should of asked before, and I can't help but think that his real family's identities, will be on the top of the list.

Silverleaf

merged with similar topic - PK mods


Okay, I'm currently writing a fic (not posted anywhere yet) and plan to include a little about Lily and Petunia's relationship in it, but I wanted to get opinions on what it was like.

I always sort of envisioned them as typical sisters, sometimes they get along fine, some times they have sibling spats. The whole Petunia hating Lily's guts thing never really seem to fit to me, since she took in Harry, so I always imaged that she was jealous of Lily since she was the favorite daughter of their parents (and maybe jealous of Lily's ability to do magic, hence, why she hates it to so much - a knee jerk reaction)

Reasons for thinking this: My relationship with my sister (she's older). Until she moved away to college we hardly ever went a day without having some sort of fight, usually over really stupid things. And just because we used to fight constantly, doesn't mean we don't get along now (interjected with the occassional relapse).

I don't really know which of us is the favorite, but I do know that all siblings get jealous over the other's talents and wish they could do it themselves. Maybe, aside from residual feeling about Lily from their childhood, Petunia took Harry is as a chance to finally perform a bit of magic herself? Her actions sealed the spell cast by Dumbledore the night Harry was left on her doorstep.

And maybe the reason for her trying to aid Vernon in squashing the magic out of Harry was her lingering jealously that Petunia herself couldn't perform magic?

Tell me what you think! I only know my own relationship with my sister and am interested to see if siblings can actually hate each other the way many authors on Portkey and other sites seem to think they do.

Also, how much older do you think Petunia is than Lily? My guess is 2-5 years but we're never told definitively in the books!

I always assumed it was three years.



This I ultimately agree with. She was jealous of Lily, and it shows.

There is no doubt that Petunia was jealous of Lily, just look at her rant in SS. Another thing I always thought was that Petunia was always a bit on the conservative side, while Lily was more on the liberal side. Using history, you can add in how the liberalism of the seventies also was playing a part of the favortism and preference of Lily. Then at the end show how the rising conservatism gives Petunia a world where she can be as accepted as Lily is in her liberal wizarding world.

~Salamon2

I know that many of you will probably disagree with me, but I was just wondering if there is anyone else out there that thinks like I do.

I have always wondered if there relationship is really as bad as it is often portrayed. I have often wondered if Petunia hated Harry so much because she feels that it is his fault she died. I think that somewhere deep down, Petunia really did love her sister, she is just too proud to admit it. I don't know, it is theory that I have had for a while, and a am currently writing a fic that has the same idea (it is a bit more complicated though)

I don't know, there are times every now and again, things she has said, and things she hasn't said. Like in POA, when she Marge was talking bad about Lily, Petunia didn't agree, but she didn't really say anything either. And then in the OOTP, when she looks at Harry almost with pity (I think, I don't really remember) It just makes me wonder if Lily and Petunia actually had a decent relationship and the reason Petunia is so foul toward Harry and dislikes magic so much is because she blames both magic and Harry for Lily's death. What are your thoughts on this?

I totally agree with you on this one! I've had the same idea but I figured I was the only one.

lol, actually that plays a huge part in the fan fic I am currently writing, and I was thinking that I ever figure out how to post it, I might get a lot of flames, but maybe I wont :-D

I actually have my own theory of their relationship which I started my own topic on. I honestly think they were like most sisters, they got a long just fine, except a few fights here and there. Like you, I am writing my own fan fic, and Lily and Petunia's relationship is a big part of it. Although I don't believe she is in the real series (Jo has stated it herself), for plot reasons I also made her a witch. I think the reason she is so bitter toward Harry, and has such a resentment of magic, is because she really did love Lily, and she blames Harry and magic for her death. Anyway, that is my theory.

I second that wholeheartly. I think when harry will be about to let Privet Drive forever behind him she will let her real feelings for her sister know and how much she miss her. I think she hates Hogwarts too because till Lily'sgot her letter the sister spend obviously less times with each other.
Anyway Petunia, I'm sure will say something like that to harry:

"i've already lost my sister because of him...I dont want to lose you too."

I don't think it will be quite that emotional, but I think Harry will get some sort of in depth explanation and possibly get to read Dumbledore's initial letter. Here's to hoping that Petunia didn't really hate her sister, and that it was all an act for Vernon's benefit.

aside from my own post (I didn't see this one when I posted it) has this topic been posted before. I was just wondering because I would have thought this paticular topic would have gotten a little more discussion

Does anyone know which sister is older? I think that's really important to the question because if Petunia is the older sister I think it's more likely that she genuinly thinks she hates Lilly, because she took away from her glory. As the older sister she should have been the one to do everything first and by going to Hogwarts Lilly would have taken that away from her, but as Lily is her baby sister there would still be a lingering tenderness that no amount of bitterness could completely kill. This could possibly be why Harry was taken in.

If Lilly is the older sister on the other hand, Petunia would have spent some part of her life daydreaming and waiting for her Hogwarts letter. When it never came a standard reaction might be, "I didn't want to go anyway, I don't like magic, anyone who does magic is a freak". This scenario would seem more consistant with Petunia's "wizards/witches are freaks" belief because it really does sound like the sort of thing a spoilt younger sibling would say when they found out they couldn't be one. Again in this scenario there would still be a lingering feelings of admiration for her older sister. Every little sister looks up to her big sister, no matter how much they think they've done better they still compare themselves and feel that they aren't as good. Having the constant comparison of Harry v Dudley in the house would only add to those feelings.

This would also explain her treatment of Harry because I really can't imagine an older sister treating her baby sisters son the way Petunia has treated Harry. Lingering feelings of tenderness that an older sister has for a younger sister should translate at least in some way to even partially positive treatment of the younger sisters son. Also resentement for being outshone by your baby sister should give way sooner after her death. Resentment for never being as good as your big sister on the other hand, especially with the daily reminder that her son even is better than yours, would only fester and become stronger as the years go by.

Hmmm... no I don't have a messed up relationship with my sisters at all. In case your wondering I'm the youngest sister, I don't have the problems that Petunia does rather I think my older sisters have the problem from scenario one. That's why I think it's easier for an older sister to get over being outshone than a younger sister. My own sisters have only ever been proud of my accomplishments, but despite everything I've done that they haven't I still feel the need to compete with them. That's why I think it's more likely that Petunia is a younger sister.

My fiance's sisters are the same aswell, the younger sister is absolutly fawned over by his mother and is really very talented. Yet her older sister only shows pride in her and the younger sister still feels as though she has to live up to her older sisters image.

It's just a theory though I don't even know if there is cananon to say which sister is older

I just thought I'd put in my two cents about relationships between siblings. Even in families where there are tight bonds between siblings, it is still possible for an extreme fall out to occur.

My dad had a normal relationship with his 2 sisters (1 older, 1 younger) & 3 older brothers. They were pretty close and used to live closeby their parents' home where they grew up. That was 12 years ago. I haven't seen one of my uncles in that long because his wife has issues about our religion and didn't want her 2 kids to be mingling with me and my siblings. Dad still talks to him on the phone occassionally, but that's about it.

My mom is very close to her 12 siblings (9 older, 2 younger), but is from a small Polynesian island and hasn't seen some of them since she left for college in the U.S.

As for me, I have 3 younger sisters & 2 younger brothers (yeah, big families seem to be a tradition on both sides). With my youngest sister, we get along ok. Occassionally, I like to pick on her and call her a brat but every once in a while we get along fine. My second sister, we're really close. Throughout high school, we occassionally did something together. Right now at college, we hang out at our apartment all the time - goofing off instead of doing homework when we don't feel like doing it . Every once in a while we argue, but we laugh about it later.

The sister closest to my age, on the other hand ... a severe relationship beyond classic sibling rivalry. From near the end of elementary school through all of high school and now coming up on 3 years of college, we have not gotten along at all. And when we fight, it's pretty viscious. In fact, none of my other siblings get along with her (O.T. kinda like the Weasleys with Percy). I've tried everything humanly possible to try and bury the hatchet - nothing. When I'm at college, we never talk on the phone. Any news about her comes from my mom. We have a lot of issues going on right now, but the fact still remains I don't know why she hates me.

Anyway, enough of my rant and back to Petunia and Lily. I'm pretty sure Petunia is older than Lily and here are my reasons: Lily died at around 21, leaving Harry - was by then 15 months - an orphan. Assuming there is a 2 year difference, that would make Petunia about 19 if she were younger. A 19-year-old Petunia who is married with a 16-month-old son? Doesn't make much sense to me based on what we know about her character. If the age gap were any bigger, Petunia would have been a teenager when she first got pregnant with Dudley. And in many societies back then: teen pregnancy = big scandal. Petunia seems to me to be the type to choose her husband very carefully (maybe based on stature) and putting off having kids until a couple years after marriage.

Now with Lily ... she hasn't seen her sister in years. This would have to be because of Petunia getting married and Lily's involvement in the Order. But Lily, based on what we know in canon, kept her sister informed of what's going on. It's very likely that Lily married James in a quiet ceremony because of the war and - just to add a slight twist - she got pregnant. It would explain why James is referred to as Lily's "good-for-nothing husband" (SS p.2, Am. Ed.).

I just finished watching the movie "A League or their own" and it reminded me of this thread because of the way it potrays the relationship between two sisters.

Dotti, the eldest sister, and Kitt, the younger sister. At the start of the movie Dotti is better at Kitt in every way and Kitt shows the bitterness that I mentioned in my first post. She respects Dotti but feels very bitter towards her and that life has treated her unfairly, no one notices her accomplishments because Dotti has done it first and done it better. When they go away from home and join the proffessional baseball league things only get worse for Kitt, instead of being outshone in everyway by her big sister in front of family and friends it's now in front of the whole country. They have a massive fight and for a while it looks like they'll never speak again, until they come up against each other in oposing teams in the world series. Kitt and Dotti end up facing off against each other directly in the deciding run of the world series. Kitt wins and proud of her accomplishment is able to forgive her older sister for always being better than her previously, Dotti rather than being angry at her little sister for beating her feels only pride in her accomplishment.

Bassically I feel like if Petunia were the older sister she'd only feel proud of her little sister Lilly's accomplishments, whereas if she is the younger sister she would feel bitter for never being able to live up to the standards her older sister had set. Nothing she did was ever special to her parents because Lily was/had always done something much better already. I would bet anything that Harry's grandparent's told people that Lily went to a special school for academically gifted children (that's probably where the St Brutus idea came from) and when Petunia didn't also get into the school for "gifted" children it was like a public humiliation. Then of course Lily became a prefect and then Head Girl of this special school, if Petunia was also a Prefect or Head Girl it wouldn't have mattered, it wasn't as good as even just being in her sister's school. That's of course if Petunia was even sent to the sort of school that had Prefects and Head Girls, she may well have just been sent to the local school, which wouldn't have had those sorts of things at all (again probably why originally Dudley was going to a "special" school while Harry was to be sent to the local school).

I wouldn't even be surprised if that's why Petunia married Vernon, Lily married early and she would have felt like a failure if she hadn't done the same. But she still felt bitter because Lilly's husband was better than hers, more handsome and attentive etc... leading to increased feelings of bitterness towards her flawlessly perfect older sister who could seemingly do no wrong. Then Petunia finally did do something first, she got pregnant, but again Lily stole her thunder by falling pregnant aswell only a few months later. So her new baby's arrival was even overshadowed by the arrival of Lily's baby a short few months later.

I think that's also why Petunia is acutely aware of exactly how old Harry is, she knows exactly when he was born because it spoilt everything for her, again. Then I would bet anything that as babies Harry developed quicker than Dudley did too, and when they started school Harry would have got better grades. I think that Harry's treatment by Petunia started as her not wanting to overlook her own son in favour of Harry who was cuter and smater, and quickly developed into the hideous treatment we saw Harry receiving at 11 years of age. As the two boys got older it would have been more and more apparant that Harry was going to far surpase Dudley in every way and he exibited signs of magic, the very core of Petunia's bitterness. This would have exacerbated Petunia's feelings of bitterness because it would have seemed as though Lily was still outshining her from beyond the grave and Harry was punished accordingly.

I'm more convinced than ever that Petunia was the younger sister and all of her behaviour, feelings and especially her treatment of Harry are a direct result of forever feeling like she couldn't live up to the shining example of her big sister.

I think that Petunia and Lily had a good, sisterly relationship, with fights and the like, but still loved each other. But once Lily figured out she was a witch, I would think that Petunia was jealous of Lily to the point of resentment that Petunia couldn't be a witch as well. But that's just my theory

There is that point in DH where Petunia almost says something to Harry, but she walks away instead. It made me so frustrated! Perfect oppotunity to show that another Dursley isn't so bad and that Harry does have a family member who might give a dam!n about him. And in Snape's memories, Lily is furious with Snape when he makes the branch fall near Petunia. I think that they cared for one another deeply, but time, jealousy, and perhaps some bitterness ruined their relationship. You have to wonder if Petunia ever felt sorry for never reconciling with her sister. That would make a good fic.

On some level, Petunia cared for Lily and by extension, Harry. The jealousy over Lily being a witch, going off to Hogwarts and getting all the attention from their parents would have to have hurt Petunia a great deal. But it takes courage for Petunia to stop Vernon from throwing Harry out of the house. She spared that tiny bit of love for Lily to keep Harry under her roof.

I agree with you on some parts on that because in DH when the Dursleys were leaving to be protected from Voldemort ( *Gasp* I said his name! Oh noes! ) Petunia looked at Harry like she was about to say something but never did.

So that also has me wondering. I know that she love her sister though. There's no doubt in that. How could she not? Wonder what happened to them in the end of DH. JK never said.......

Okay, firstly, I just have to day A League of Their Own?? I LOVE THAT MOVIE!!! And I never really thought of it in conjunction with this post, but it's an interesting take...

I don't agree with Petunia being the younger sister though. If you read DH, especially the chapter The Prince's Tale, I get the impression that Petunia is older, especially when she sort of gives Lily the "order" to leave when they run into Snape.

Also, I think you'd need to take Lily's age when she gave birth to Harry into consideration. In HBP Dumbledore mentions Harry's coming of age at 17 and Petunia refutes this by saying that Dudley is a month older than Harry, so Harry and Dudley are basically the same age, and Lily and Petunia were therefore pregnant at the same time. If you do the math, Lily and James were like 21 when they died on Halloween, Harry was a year old when he died (a year + a couple months) so Lily was probably 19 or at the most 20 when she had Harry. If Petunia was younger than Lily, she'd have to be at least a year younger (9 month pregnancy plus a few for mommy to, ahem, recover down there) =^P So if Petunia was younger she would have been giving birth when she was 18 years old or younger.

If that's not totally convincing, I think their characters would refute Petunia having gotten pregnant at 17 or 18. Like someone else has posted, Lily was definitely the more liberal of the sisters and would therefore probably not think twice about getting married at the age of 18 or 19, basically right out of school. I get the impression from what we know about Petunia and her almost compulsive need for the "normal muggle life" that she would want to be married and of a respectable age when she had kids. Not meaning she wanted to be 45 when she got around to it, but maybe not 18 - people might look down upon a pregnant 18-year-old, whereas a pregnant woman in her early twenties is more... "respectable"

My own opinion is that Petunia is at least two years older than Lily.

Wow, I should be a lawyer or something! lol!