Okay, forgive me but I'm not majorly a James/Lily shipper. I mean, I'm not anti-J/L, and I believe they were good together and all, but I'm not really into the J/L fandom so much as H/Hr.
anyway, I was writing a fanfic and had Lupin mention J/L and I found myself thinking of their relationship as including bickering similar to that between R/H, but that it eventually became love. An obvious from the books is in OotP when Harry sees Lily defending Snape when James is cursing him, and she calls him some names I've now forgotten.
I thought I'd ask all you L/J shippers for any thoughts on this, since I'm sure you've all paid much more attention to them than I have!
I'm not sure it bodes too well for H/Hr if it's true, although I do believe Harry has been through so much he woudln't neccessarily want that kind of relationship.
Full Version: Lily/James and Ron/Hermione
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I personally don't see much basis for comparison.
James and Lily apparently didn't know each other very well for their first several years in Hogwarts. James fancied Lily by their fifth year, but Lily was turned off by his obnoxious behavior. James actively pursued Lily and was rather frustrated that she kept turning him down, until (presumably, since I'm wandering into speculation here) the incident where Snape nearly got killed by Sirius' prank steadied and matured James enough to change his behavior radically. He changed radically enough that by the time Harry was hearing people reminisce about his dad, nothing was mentioned of his bullying beyond good-natured pranking and high spirits. In their case I didn't see bickering, but James trying very hard to flirt and Lily having none of it.
But with Ron and Hermione, they've known each other for six years and have been considering themselves part of a trio of best friends. But after six years, neither of them has made a clear attempt to start a relationship. Ron doesn't have much time to show any maturity he might have gained through his near-death-by-poison. And Ron and Hermione don't just bicker, they fight with furiousness and go-for-the-jugular venom on a regular basis.
Fundamentally, Ron and Hermione have never learned to truly respect one another for who they are. I think James always respected Lily for herself as well as fancied her and I think she learned to respect him as well after he straightened up. That lack of respect is a big reason I don't think R/Hr would last very long if it even got to a relationship stage in the first place.
James and Lily apparently didn't know each other very well for their first several years in Hogwarts. James fancied Lily by their fifth year, but Lily was turned off by his obnoxious behavior. James actively pursued Lily and was rather frustrated that she kept turning him down, until (presumably, since I'm wandering into speculation here) the incident where Snape nearly got killed by Sirius' prank steadied and matured James enough to change his behavior radically. He changed radically enough that by the time Harry was hearing people reminisce about his dad, nothing was mentioned of his bullying beyond good-natured pranking and high spirits. In their case I didn't see bickering, but James trying very hard to flirt and Lily having none of it.
But with Ron and Hermione, they've known each other for six years and have been considering themselves part of a trio of best friends. But after six years, neither of them has made a clear attempt to start a relationship. Ron doesn't have much time to show any maturity he might have gained through his near-death-by-poison. And Ron and Hermione don't just bicker, they fight with furiousness and go-for-the-jugular venom on a regular basis.
Fundamentally, Ron and Hermione have never learned to truly respect one another for who they are. I think James always respected Lily for herself as well as fancied her and I think she learned to respect him as well after he straightened up. That lack of respect is a big reason I don't think R/Hr would last very long if it even got to a relationship stage in the first place.
Thanks for replying. Like I said I hadn't really delved into the Lily/James relationship before.
I like the idea that it was just James trying to flirt and Lily rejecting him at the time much better than the idea of them having a bickering relationship when they were going out and after Hogwarts. I don't see Lily as being someone who would take any nonesense from James, but I think that's a good thing, and that he probably needed someone like her to calm him down a bit!
I like the idea that it was just James trying to flirt and Lily rejecting him at the time much better than the idea of them having a bickering relationship when they were going out and after Hogwarts. I don't see Lily as being someone who would take any nonesense from James, but I think that's a good thing, and that he probably needed someone like her to calm him down a bit!
Well...I've never really tried to mirror L/J to any other relationship in the HP universe and I don't think that R/Hr is much like them at all. Perhaps in fanfiction, this is so with their constant bickering but in canon it actually suggests that they've never really spent much time together by the way James reacts to Lily's barbs about his character.
That seems to be the big differnece between the two relationships for me too. I think you hit it right on the head there, puck_nc .
QUOTE(puck_nc)
Fundamentally, Ron and Hermione have never learned to truly respect one another for who they are. I think James always respected Lily for herself as well as fancied her and I think she learned to respect him as well after he straightened up. That lack of respect is a big reason I don't think R/Hr would last very long if it even got to a relationship stage in the first place.
That seems to be the big differnece between the two relationships for me too. I think you hit it right on the head there, puck_nc .
I've got to be a bit careful of what I say here, as I am a R/Hr shipper.
I agree with others who've posted to this thread that the fact that Ron and Hermione have been friends for years while James and Lily apparently didn't spend *that* much time together until they began dating is a pretty significant difference in the relationship dynamics. I also don't believe that Lily and James constantly bickered after they got together either - couples can mellow a bit once they feel secure.
Where I do feel comparisons can be made is that L/J and R/Hr both involve people who have no trouble speaking their minds even when it might cause unnecessary trouble. I don't think Harry wants a bickering sort of relationship, but he starts out with some unrealistic ideas of relationships in general IMHO. He expects his dates with Cho to be all fun all the time (for both of them) despite knowing she's not over Cedric and so on. He sees *one* incident between his parents and begins to wonder if his father forced things despite the fact that Lily seems quite capable of taking care of herself. None of this is surprising given his upbringing with the Dursleys, where doing anything they disapproved of was met with threats, yelling, and the withdrawal of what little warmth they might have ever shown him. What I think that memory, and his exposure to Ron and Hermione (if indeed JKR goes that way in canon), might be meant to show him is that it is possible to have conflict and still care about each other.
I agree with others who've posted to this thread that the fact that Ron and Hermione have been friends for years while James and Lily apparently didn't spend *that* much time together until they began dating is a pretty significant difference in the relationship dynamics. I also don't believe that Lily and James constantly bickered after they got together either - couples can mellow a bit once they feel secure.
Where I do feel comparisons can be made is that L/J and R/Hr both involve people who have no trouble speaking their minds even when it might cause unnecessary trouble. I don't think Harry wants a bickering sort of relationship, but he starts out with some unrealistic ideas of relationships in general IMHO. He expects his dates with Cho to be all fun all the time (for both of them) despite knowing she's not over Cedric and so on. He sees *one* incident between his parents and begins to wonder if his father forced things despite the fact that Lily seems quite capable of taking care of herself. None of this is surprising given his upbringing with the Dursleys, where doing anything they disapproved of was met with threats, yelling, and the withdrawal of what little warmth they might have ever shown him. What I think that memory, and his exposure to Ron and Hermione (if indeed JKR goes that way in canon), might be meant to show him is that it is possible to have conflict and still care about each other.
I think that L/J is the stereotypical Pride and Prejudice character relationship. And by that I mean they got their first impressions wrong about each other. Ron and Hermione are not like that, they know exactly who each other is, they know why each other supports a different viewpoint, and they stubbornly refuse to compromise. Compromise is a key issue in a relationship. With L/J, to quote the original title of P&P their "First Impressions" were off about each other. Ron and Hermione, are beyond first impressions, and know everything there is to know that the other is willing to share.
~Salamon2
~Salamon2
Even if James and Lily wern't friends I can still see compaisons between R/H. In both the bickering and the denial (On Lily's part) with what may have been attraction, even when they did fight. I'm more of a R/H shipper myself so I can't really comment much more, but I agree with what DianaHarringtonWinters said.
QUOTE(Salamon2 @ Aug 27 2006, 07:00 AM) 
I think that L/J is the stereotypical Pride and Prejudice character relationship. And by that I mean they got their first impressions wrong about each other. Ron and Hermione are not like that, they know exactly who each other is, they know why each other supports a different viewpoint, and they stubbornly refuse to compromise. Compromise is a key issue in a relationship. With L/J, to quote the original title of P&P their "First Impressions" were off about each other. Ron and Hermione, are beyond first impressions, and know everything there is to know that the other is willing to share.
~Salamon2
Exactly, I agree.
Hermione and Ron know each other and know eachother, they still fight. James and Lily/Elizabeth and Darcy only fought until they knew who each other were.
I think you could draw some comparisons.
Btw, I ship both R/Hr and J/L.
For a start you have the 'popular' (-ish in the case of Ron) guy - Harry himself made the comparison - and the clever girl (though even JK has said that Lily is like Ginny, so not totally Hermione-ish) wgi constantly argue.
So far it has been said that Lily and James don't know each other well, who says? They probably know each other well enough to hurl insults at each other.
And the whole Ron/Hermione not respecting each other - again, who says? They are best friends. Surely they appreciate each other?
Also, Ron and Hermione bicker just like Lily and James. Their huge fights are always (I think) because they like each other but (in the case of Lavender and Krum) are jealous.
Arguing wise:
R/Hr it's all down to hidden feelings, really.
J/L it's because Lily doesn't want to give James the satisfaction of getting her. Too much of an ego boost to an already inflated ego!
Thats what I think anyway.
Btw, I ship both R/Hr and J/L.
For a start you have the 'popular' (-ish in the case of Ron) guy - Harry himself made the comparison - and the clever girl (though even JK has said that Lily is like Ginny, so not totally Hermione-ish) wgi constantly argue.
So far it has been said that Lily and James don't know each other well, who says? They probably know each other well enough to hurl insults at each other.
And the whole Ron/Hermione not respecting each other - again, who says? They are best friends. Surely they appreciate each other?
Also, Ron and Hermione bicker just like Lily and James. Their huge fights are always (I think) because they like each other but (in the case of Lavender and Krum) are jealous.
Arguing wise:
R/Hr it's all down to hidden feelings, really.
J/L it's because Lily doesn't want to give James the satisfaction of getting her. Too much of an ego boost to an already inflated ego!
Thats what I think anyway.
QUOTE(Livi Lovegood @ Feb 25 2007, 03:41 PM)
(though even JK has said that Lily is like Ginny, so not totally Hermione-ish)
And when did she say that? Post that quote.
QUOTE(Venus @ Feb 25 2007, 11:58 PM)
QUOTE(Livi Lovegood @ Feb 25 2007, 03:41 PM)
(though even JK has said that Lily is like Ginny, so not totally Hermione-ish)
And when did she say that? Post that quote.
urgh, i read it ages ago but i'll try to find it for you.
it basically was saying about how Lily dated guys before James. something along the lines of
"she was very like Ginny, both were/are popular girls"
Ages ago? You mean after HBP because Ginny wasn't popular until then.
Anyway, being popular does define someone. So, if Ginny and Lily are both popular then they're surely interchangeable. They've got red hair too. If that doesn't make them the exact some person then nothing does. Personalities and relationships don't really need to be analyzed at all. Sorry, I don't need that quote by JKR. I've used logic to figure it out.
Anyway, being popular does define someone. So, if Ginny and Lily are both popular then they're surely interchangeable. They've got red hair too. If that doesn't make them the exact some person then nothing does. Personalities and relationships don't really need to be analyzed at all. Sorry, I don't need that quote by JKR. I've used logic to figure it out.
i found the interview!
ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?
JKR: No. [Pause] She was like Ginny: she was a popular girl.
it's the Emerson/Melissa (Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron) interview. pg 3
so i read a little into it but i always see ginny like lily.
besides JKR always intented harry and ginny to be together:
Same interview, page 3, before the first quote.
[on Ginny and Harry getting together]
MA: I think you set that up from the train compartment scene [in Book 1], where he was watching - all the relationships, that scene probably set it up.
JKR: I think so. I hope so. So you liked Harry/Ginny, did you, when it happened?
ES: We've been waiting for this for years!
JKR: Oh, I'm so glad.
MA: Oh my gosh, that kiss!
JKR: Yeah.
ES: It actually materialized!
JKR: It actually happened, I know! I felt a little bit like that.
MA: Had you been trying to get them -
JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.
ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can't figure out what Emerson actually said here.]
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt - and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned - initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up - in Phoenix, remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, "I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people," basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in Prince, and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
okay, didn't mean to totally start defending my shipping preferences, oh well.
QUOTE
ES: Was James the only one who had romantic feelings for Lily?
JKR: No. [Pause] She was like Ginny: she was a popular girl.
it's the Emerson/Melissa (Mugglenet/Leaky Cauldron) interview. pg 3
so i read a little into it but i always see ginny like lily.
besides JKR always intented harry and ginny to be together:
QUOTE
Same interview, page 3, before the first quote.
[on Ginny and Harry getting together]
MA: I think you set that up from the train compartment scene [in Book 1], where he was watching - all the relationships, that scene probably set it up.
JKR: I think so. I hope so. So you liked Harry/Ginny, did you, when it happened?
ES: We've been waiting for this for years!
JKR: Oh, I'm so glad.
MA: Oh my gosh, that kiss!
JKR: Yeah.
ES: It actually materialized!
JKR: It actually happened, I know! I felt a little bit like that.
MA: Had you been trying to get them -
JKR: Well I always knew that that was going to happen, that they were going to come together and then part.
ES: Were you always -----ing it? [We can't figure out what Emerson actually said here.]
JKR: Well, no, not really, because the plan was, which I really hope I fulfilled, is that the reader, like Harry, would gradually discover Ginny as pretty much the ideal girl for Harry. She's tough, not in an unpleasant way, but she's gutsy. He needs to be with someone who can stand the demands of being with Harry Potter, because he's a scary boyfriend in a lot of ways. He's a marked man. I think she's funny, and I think that she's very warm and compassionate. These are all things that Harry requires in his ideal woman. But, I felt - and I'm talking years ago when all this was planned - initially, she's terrified by his image. I mean, he's a bit of a rock god to her when she sees him first at 10 or 11, and he's this famous boy. So Ginny had to go through a journey as well. And rather like with Ron, I didn't want Ginny to be the first girl that Harry ever kissed. That's something I meant to say, and it's kind of tied in.
One of the ways in which I tried to show that Harry has done a lot of growing up - in Phoenix, remember when Cho comes into the compartment, and he thinks, "I wish I could have been discovered sitting with better people," basically? He's with Luna and Neville. So literally the identical thing happens in Prince, and he's with Luna and Neville again, but this time, he has grown up, and as far as he's concerned he is with two of the coolest people on the train. They may not look that cool. Harry has really grown. And I feel that Ginny and Harry, in this book, they are total equals. They are worthy of each other. They've both gone through a big emotional journey, and they've really got over a lot of delusions, to use your word, together. So, I enjoyed writing that. I really like Ginny as a character.
okay, didn't mean to totally start defending my shipping preferences, oh well.
WOAH. Me and JKR use the same logic. I am smrt like her!
lol!
i think we have gotten rather off the subject but oh well.
i guess we have now decided that lily is more like ginny than hermione.
which would justify h/g if they are like an incarnation of james and lily.
i like to think that the romance will keep repeating itself in reincarnations until it has a happy ending.
in other words:
harry and ginny have to live! then they can get married and have kids and continue the potter line! and then die at a ripe old age!
oh and in case ron and hermione are also a reincarnation (personality wise) they can't die either.
i don't think i'm going to allow anyone other than the baddies die in deathly hallows...
i think we have gotten rather off the subject but oh well.
i guess we have now decided that lily is more like ginny than hermione.
which would justify h/g if they are like an incarnation of james and lily.
i like to think that the romance will keep repeating itself in reincarnations until it has a happy ending.
in other words:
harry and ginny have to live! then they can get married and have kids and continue the potter line! and then die at a ripe old age!
oh and in case ron and hermione are also a reincarnation (personality wise) they can't die either.
i don't think i'm going to allow anyone other than the baddies die in deathly hallows...
Yeah. Great logic. Incest isn't weird if it's reincarnations ok. They're all have lots of babies that look and act like Harry and Ginny who are actually Lilly and James so they'll marry each other again! And Ron and Hermione! Process of elimination! GO OBHWF!!!
hows it incest?
woah! go OBHWF!
woah! go OBHWF!
QUOTE
i don't think i'm going to allow anyone other than the baddies die in deathly hallows...
But are you JKR? Only she can decide who dies or not.
Miss Mady
QUOTE(Miss Mady @ Feb 26 2007, 04:59 PM)
QUOTE
i don't think i'm going to allow anyone other than the baddies die in deathly hallows...
But are you JKR? Only she can decide who dies or not.
Miss Mady
course i can't change the outcome of the book, it was a joke.
i do however know i will definitely be in tears at the end of DH.
QUOTE
i do however know i will definitely be in tears at the end of DH.
Hmm, whose tears?
Miss Mady
QUOTE(Miss Mady @ Feb 26 2007, 05:12 PM)
QUOTE
i do however know i will definitely be in tears at the end of DH.
Hmm, whose tears?
Miss Mady
Mine, I'm going to be sobbing the whole way through probably. Call me emotional but I have adored Harry Potter for over half my life, I started reading it when I was six and I am now 14, and now its about to end.
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