I've been thinking lately about the kind of relationship Lily and James had together and I've come to the conclusion that all I have assumed about their relationship and how it worked is based on practically nothing. One moment of anger between them doesn't mean that they hated each other for all of school nor does it mean they were best friends, but what were they to each other?
Were they casual aquaintances and James developed a crush from far away or were they tentative friends for a few years before he started to ask her out? Was him asking her out that day by the lake a spur of the moment, first time try at it or do you think that he had done it before? Do you think he was persistent in chasing her, to the point of bugging her every day with the question of a date or he was more laid back about it?
The problem with a lot of the stuff that we discuss is that it has been contaminated, in a sense, by all the fanfiction that we all read about these characters. Everyone assumes that they have a love/hate relationship because of all the fanfictions that portray it as so, but think about what we know about the relationships Harry has with the people in his house...does he really dislike any the girls in his grade despite the fact that 'they travel in packs'? Nobody in the same house really has a deep dislike for anyone else in said house. I just don't think it's realistic to think that Lily would harbor it for James. Yes, he was an immature boy and all that, but the most normal girls do to them is roll their eyes and ignore them and occasionally have an outburst of annoyance at their actions(i.e. OotP.) Other than that, they don't really notice them unless of course they ask you out occasionally.
What does everyone else think about this?


Julie

I suppose it depends on your definition of 'hate'. I don't believe that Lily ever wished James dead, or that he'd just go away forever, but I do think her distaste for his bad behavior was genuine and deep. She may or may not have always been as vocal in her opinion of him as she was in OOTP. While of course she and James would have known each other and spent some time together because they were in the same House and year, I don't get the impression that they were friends for any real length of time - if they were, I think Sirius and Remus, who would've also spent more time with her, would talk about her more.

I don't think it was a love/hate relationship in the 'Argh, I could kill you but you're just too hot!' sense. I do think it was hate-to-love in that Lily really did dislike him, then as he grew up she saw he'd mended his ways and fell for him.

I think that they were friends, but once he started asking her out persistently, she was quite annoyed. I think every time he asked her, she built up a little more dislike for him. I think she would have tolerated him, but wouldn't have gone out of her way to be with him. If he stepped over the line, she would've had no problem putting him back into his place.
At the beginning of 7th year, he is usually shown to of have matured, thus enabling Lily to see him in a new light. I think this is believeable, but she wouldn't of have gone snogging him right away. I think he sort of grew on her, and she liked him until it turned to something more.

I think that if she spoke to any of the Marauders it would have been Remus, partly because he was a Prefect with her and partly because he seemed to be the most mature of the bunch at that point in their lives. I tend to lean towards her developing a completely platonic relationship with Remus and it eventually stemming into her forming a friendship with James.
In many fics I've read(that coincedently came out after the third film) seem to imply that Lily and Remus had a romantic interlude, but I've never found any textual evidence in this assumption and the only thing that could have led to this common theme is the reference in PoA movie that Lupin makes on the bridge to Harry. People tend to blur the movies with the books sometimes, I suppose.



Do you think it was him who changed exclusively or did they both change? There are a lot of theories out there about what happened to change the perspective of their relationship, but I think that their was a shift in both of their personalities that changed how they looked at each other, but not how other people looked at them. I don't think that it was a dramatic change or they wouldn't be the same people and it would have already been mentioned that they both had developed visibly. I think that the change was very subtle in both of them, maybe just one last drop of maturity brought on by the war that was clouding their horizons.

Which brings me to another point in my mind(because I have many of these), Post-Hogwarts, how do you think the war affected Lily and James' lives and their relationships not only with each other but with the people around them?

Julie

I would say that it was James who went through the more obvious changes. He would always love a joke, but cut down on his more bullying and 'toe-rag' behaviors - that was probably noticed throughout the school. That takes a significant change in habits, especially to eventually convince Lily that he was an acceptable boyfriend and then husband.

Lily's changes, I think, were more subtle. Young!Lily seems a bit quick to judge, getting a first impression and then viewing subsequent interactions through that lens (so, if James did act nice, she might have thought he was just trying to get something out of it) and I think James really had to work to get past that. Eventually though he did, and I'd like to think she was willing to give people more of a chance to show who they really were afterward.

I don't think, during the War, that James and Lily doubted each other, Sirius, Remus, or Peter - it was, after all, Sirius' idea to change Secret-Keepers, not J or L's, even if they did go along with it. Aside from that little group though and perhaps some of the Order members, I see them being quite isolated for security reasons, ESPECIALLY after the prophecy. We don't know how much they were told, but I can't see Dumbledore not telling them *something*. I think their relationship was rather intense and had some fights, because there were so many things that were A Very Big Deal going on, but they had a policy of trying not to go to bed upset with each other.

Hmm...how much were they told? I've never thought about that. Dumbledore has been known to withold critical information until the very last minute before, so I wonder if they knew that Voldemort would choose between Harry or Neville. Do you think the Longbottoms' torture came after Lily and James' death? I think they must have, to make a logical timeline because if he had to choose between Harry and Neville he would have tried to have Neville killed when he tortured his parents into madness.
I get the impression that most families of any stature that weren't on Voldemort's side were in hiding. How distinguished could James and Lily be though, as such a young couple and in a prejudiced society?
Another reason for them to go in hiding was perhaps Voldemort had identified them as key members of the Order and he was slowly picking off them, as we know. Do you think they were still active members in the Order once they had gone into hiding or were they cut off from the world entirely?
I tend to think that they were forced to wait for second-hand information, much like Harry in the 5th book, but I guess they could have still been functioning in the underground rebellion.

Julie

I don't believe that Lily truely hated James, nor do i think that they were friends before the "hate" part of their relationship started.

Are you guys familiar with literary analysis? If so, you'll understand me when i say that they were each other's shadow. Think about someone you hate. Most likely, if you truly knew them you wouldn't hate them, but it's easier to dislike the person than to try to understand their life. You don't want that guilt. Also, they got married so they had to have something in common; this brings in the shadow part. I just think they were alike in personality, but the parts Lily might have disliked about herself she saw in James, so she hated James instead of blaming herself.

So yeah. Placement of blame. Lily and James. woo hoo. sorry for any spelling/grammatical errors.

The Longbottoms' torture definatly came after Lily & James death.

HPGOF pg 654

Emphasis mine.

It's a common mistake that Neville's parents were tortured either before or at the same time as the Potters were killed. It's also a common misconception that both of the Longbottoms were Aurors but as you can see from the above quote it was only Frank, Nevilles father, that was an Auror.

With regards to the actual thread topic...

I know that most of the stories I've read that Lily hates James from the first moment they met and usually her hatred is quite pronounced. James on the other hand is infatuated from the begining.

I don't think this is quite right.

I think she had a similar relationship to maybe Harry/Lavender pre book 6 you know kind of in the same house but not really involved with each others lives in any way. Lily would occasionally get frustrated with James and dislike some of the things he did but nothing major.

I've allways kind of thought that the day by the lake Lily was really angry with what James was doing at that moment and years of occasional annoyance and exasperation came bubbling to the surface. I thought that James asked her out as a spur of the moment thing and she was so angry about the way he was treating Snape and that coupled with a bit of his behaviour that she'd noticed from years of being in the same house and she told him off. I didn't get the impression from James's reaction that it was something she'd ever done before though.

After that I kinda see it as being a bit of a Darcyesque transformation. Like in Pride and Prejudice Darcy has no idea that Lizzy thinks so badly of him until he asks her to marry him then she tells him off, much like the pensive scene. The next time they meet Darcy was a changed man you know all polite and gentlemanly. I kinda think James would do the same thing you know, he'd've realise hey she's right I've been a jerk and he'd've changed.

That's what I was thinking, I just didn't feel like looking it up. They would have had too, now that I really think about it.




That's always been my impression, but somewhere along the line one person decided that L/J must have had a volatile relationship and of course everyone jumped on that idea and used it. I don't think James ever asked her out every single day for the rest of her life like so many people think, but maybe he asked her out once or twice after that and after getting turned down let her be for a while before trying again in 7th year.
Do you think James ever really talked to her much before that day in 5th year? I'm not really convinced that he did. I mean, looking at a relationship like Harry and Lavender have, they have never had a meaningful conversation, have they? And they are in the same house and hey, she even dated his best friend, but they aren't that close and he rarely even acknowledges her. I think L/J would have been about the same way(minus the whole dating the best friend thing) except with a different ending in which Lily forcibly brought herself into his world, intentionally or not, by yelling at him that day at the Lake and consequently making him fall in love with her eventually.
But...maybe one day we'll know for sure, if JKR keeps her promise about writing more about the Marauder era...I won't hold my breath though.



Yeah, obviously his friends would have never told him that he was a jerk because they did the same kind of stuff that he did so his realization that would cause him to grow up a little bit had to come from an outside source shedding light on what other people thought of him as. All the better if that lightbulb came from Lily herself because that could create some definite interest from James, don't you think?

Julie

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply, I don't come to this forum that often... My first love is H/Hr...

I think it was a case really of they were in the same house so they knew each other, were aware in a peripheral sense of what each other liked etc... Kinda like Harry knew that Lavender loved divination/thought unicorns were beautiful etc...

I think it's possible that James had asked Lily out in the past, probably not repeatedly as most fanfics assume but maybe once or twice. I just read the scene again, to refresh my memory, and the way he says "go on go out with me" seems like he may have asked once or twice before been refused and not really know why. I think from his reaction after Lily tells him off, that it's not something she's ever done before.

So I think James had probably fancied Lily for a little while, might have asked her out once or twice but never really gotten a reason for the negative response until that day by the lake. Your probably right, probably no one had spoken to James like that before, he seemed like he had no idea that his behaviour might be offensive. I wouldn't even be surprised if he'd asked Lupin about it and been told in Lupins much softer way that Lily was right and he was a jerk sometimes.

I'd say after that, he's behaviour changed quite dramatically and he became the wonderful man that he always had the potential to be and that people like Hagrid always gave him credit for being.

You know I would like to read a P&P style Lily and James story... pity I don't have time to write it...

I'll have to disagree here. While that reference does mention only Frank, in OotP (Ch. 23, pg. 514, US hardcover edition) Gran Longbottom says, when speaking of Frank and Alice, "They were Aurors, you know, and very well-respected within the Wizarding community."


To bring this back on topic, I agree with you ladylaughalot that that day by the lake was probably the first time Lily really let James have it. She might've told him off over other bullying incidents, etc., before, but never in such a way that he realized his behavior was making her think badly of him as a person and wasn't taken as just amusing hijinks.

I also agree with your assessment of how well they knew each other at first.

I wonder if Lily and James were friends with Alice and Frank? If so, were Lily and Alice pregnant together? Girls might understand this - women usually help/support each other when they're both pregnant. It'd be interesting to know if the two families were close.

I couldn't belive that no one had ever told him that he was a bit of a bully sometimes, but I guess he could be intimidating too, so that might have played into his ignorance of the fact that he picked on other people a little too much. Everyone else was afraid to tell him.




You know...I was thinking about that a few weeks ago and went through a whole timeline comparing the two relationships and quite a lot of things came up in perfect parallels...makes you wonder exactly how much inspiration JKR took from Jane Austen when you put L/J side by side to Elizabeth/Darcy.




Good to know. I wonder why there's always such discrepencies over that particular family...not like it's complex history, it's just everyone's made their own version of it that it gets all mangled up.




I would venture to think the Longbottoms were a bit older than L/J, but it is possible that they were good friends. They were in the Order together so they certainly knew each other.


Julie

Good pick up, I'd completely forgotten about that mention of the Longbottoms. I wonder why in one quote it's only Frank thats an Auror and in the other it's clearly both of them? Maybe it's just another Marcus Flint?



Yeah... I mean she'd probably have made the odd comment, but nothing that really made him think. I certainly don't think they would've had the type of relationship where he constantly asks her out and she constantly tells him off as is depicted in some fanfics.



It's always like that with the really popular kids in school though isn't it? They go around acting like complete Berks and no-one has the guts to call them on it. Even their friends don't say anything...



Personally I think JKR has been greatly influenced by Jane Austen. There's a thread over on the Harry/Hermione forum about it, mainly because the Harry/Hermione ship so closely resembles the relationships in Emma. Lily/James are definately a Lizzy/Darcy style couple though... and a fanfic that draws those comparisons out would be a lot of fun to read I think.



I reckon it's probably one of those little details, like what year Marcus Flint was supposed to be in, that JKR has just fudged up a little...



I agree Lady Akako, I always got the impression, maybe Lupin mentioned something at some point, that The Potters knew the Longbottoms distantly, they were friendly aquiantences but not really friends...



Cheers Lady Laughalot.

Hm, how do you figure? Just curious. I don't remember reading about the Longbottoms' age. And also, about the Longbottoms and the Potters never really being friends, I don' t know. In the first and second books, Harry didn't know who his parents' friends were until book three, and that was only because the entire Sirius escapade. I would venture to guess that if that hadn't happened, Harry might never have met Remus, Sirius and Peter (granted, without these meetings, the plot couldn't have progressed, but hypothetically).

I agree with whoever said that Lily was a but quick to judge.
However, I also think that she always had a little something for James, but wanted him to behave more maturely. You're right, I agree, that she did not see the great things he did, and so he changed. And yeah, his changes were probably more noticeable, but I don't doubt that she changed as well, they'd have to for the relationship to work. I don't think she hated him at all.

Yeah it is...good thing our Lily didn't seem to set much stock by tradition and was comfortable telling him off...although, do you think she felt guilty for blowing up at him like she did? 'Cause if I did that to someone I would at least feel uncomfortable around them for awhile...



Thankfully JKR isn't as unnecassarily wordy as Austen though...we should probably start another thread about that cause this really isn't the place for Lizzy/Darcy and L/J comparisions but I'm glad I'm not the only L/J shipper who's noticed the striking similarities between the couples.



Yeah...I don't think their relationship with each other is ever mentioned but that might be why I'm leaning towards them not knowing each other well...By the way, you can call me Julie.



Well, because as I mentioned their relationship with each other is never specifically mentioned and I think that when Harry & Company were in the Hospital Wing and saw Neville with his mother and father, that Neville's grandmother would have mentioned something to the point of the Potters and Longbottoms being close if they were. She seems to be the kind to want connections and glory, so why would she not mention a connection with one of the most well-known families in the wizarding world?


Julie