Ok.... so I was updating my MySpace page and realized almost every movie/show on my list has a lot of H/Hr characteristics... and since some have been mentioned in great detail (some by me! ) I will just list them... maybe start a few more debates!

Legends Of The Fall -- Tristan and Susanna
Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang -- Harry and Harmony
Cruel Intentions -- Sebastian and Annette
Counte Of Monte Cristo -- Edmond and Mercedes
Ever After -- Henry and Danielle
High School Musical -- Troy and Gabriella
Pirates of the Carribean -- Will and Elizabeth
Adventures in Babysitting -- Dan and Chris
Center Stage -- Charlie and Jody
The Mummy -- Rick and Evy
True Lies -- Harry and Helen
Ladder 49 -- Jack and Linda
My Girl -- Thomas J and Vada
Hurcules (disney) -- Hercules and Meg
Grease -- Danny and Sandy
Failure to Launch -- Trip and Paula
Miss Congeniality -- Eric and Gracie
Mulan -- Shang and Mulan
Gladiator -- Maximus and Lucilla
Bring it On -- Cliff and Torrence
50 First dates -- Henry and Lucy
Walk the Line -- John and June
Save The Last Dance -- Derek and Sarah
Win a Date with Tad Hamilton
The Princess Bride -- Wesley and Buttercup
When Harry Met Sally -- Harry and Sally
Titanic -- Jack and Rose
The Notebook -- Noah and Allie

tv...
Scrubs -- JD and Elliot
Lost -- Jack and Kate
Smallville -- Clark and Lana
Gilmore Girls -- Logan and Rory
Grey's Anatomy -- Derek and Meredith
One Tree Hill -- Nathan and Hailey
Vampire High -- Drew and Marryl
Full Metal Alchemist -- Edward and Wrinry
Teen Titans -- Robin and Starfire
Avatar -- Ang and Katarra
Danny Phantom -- Danny and Sam


That is my opinons anyway.... Thoughts and comments???

Really? I really don't think that Lana is the best person to compare to Hermione especially with Lana getting together with Lex(gag) and having his kid plus all that drama surrounding Clark not being able to really talk to Lana about his secret and all that stuff... personally I don't believe that relationship has/had any trust in it but since I haven't been watching since the whole Lexana thing...

But the whole Teen titans, FMA, and Danny phantom totally agree with you

I kno! Lex and Lana makes me gag.... but I really cant stand Chloe... and the whole her pining over clark just screams Ginny to me... personally, I believe Lana and Clark are more like it due to the fact that no matter who comes into their love lives (Lex, Lois, etc...) and no matter how bad their relationship is at the time, or how rocky it gets for them, they still choose each other over even those who supposedly meant the most to them!

IMO House has a couple..

House and Cuddy. Cuddy can keep House in check (she's the only one) and they do understand each other perfectly.

Cameron and Chase, you see that there is a caring and mutual respect for one another...if they do get together they have that "friends first" thing..

And also...Cameron and Wilson. I think this one is just because of the qualities that they share, the compliment each other so well.

I think that's the main thing, the two people compliment and complete each other..(especially House and Cuddy..)

Burke & Christina From Grey's
Especially since Christina is very Hermione.

Totally agree! That was the first couple that came to me and I read this tittle!
And there is the fact that Joey is a total nerd too! I always loved her!

I agree with you, especially about Lex/Lana (seriously, how disturbing and wrong is that? No offense to anyone who ships them). I don't know what it is about Clark and Lana, but I can't help but ship them. I guess it's because, like you said, through everything, they never stopped loving eachother. Cheesy, I know, but he's done a lot for her, even if she doesn't know it. He's always protecting her, only the difference between them and H/Hr is that she doesn't even know it. Gah, I'm rambling, I can tell. I'll stop but only after saying that Clark DID in fact, tell Lana his secret, and she accepted him protected him, but anyone who saw that episode knows how that ended

I could totally ship Clark/Chloe though! Clark/Lois does nothing for me however. Which kinda sucks, seeing how they end up together.

Anyway, moving on, how about Lucas/Peyton from OTH? I think someone mentioned them, but I think they're like H/Hr.

Well, the way I see it... a majority of the major characters in OTH all hold a major characteristic of Harry's: Nathan, Lucas, Peyton, and Brooke especially... Neither Peyton nor Brooke really totally embody Hermione. That is why they don't remind me of H/Hr. Nathan is the martyr in Harry, Lucas is his kind and protective nature, Brooke has wealth, but no family, and nor does she believe she is quite good enough for others... Peyton is the darker side of Harry, a loner, and jaded by bad experiences and those who have left her hanging in the past...

Now, I do not ship Lucas and Peyton, and again, I see them more of a H/G relationship if anything... And though I do totally adore Brucas, they are even less like the Harmony ship we all know and love! Like I said before though, I see Nathan and Hailey of more the H/Hr ship. Hailey is smart of course, a tutor, kind, and loyal friend... Nathan's home life is kind of screwy, and has an almost non-existant relationship with both his parents, but he is incredibly devoted to his friends and loved ones, especially Hailey. He is a talented athlete; and he keeps the needs and wants of his loved ones far beyond his own... there is pressure on him to first be a good athlete, and now, to be a good father.

Also, his relationship with Hailey has changed him for the better; much like Harry and Hermione both brought out the best in each other...

totally Naley from OTH... really... I agree...

Yeah I agree with that too...actually, I can't believe I forgot about them.

I have another one:
Hornet/Prosper from The Theif Lord. Hornet reminds me of Hermione for being Prosper's best friend, one he can trust throughout the whole book, not to mention being a bookworm. Prosper remindis me of Harry, but I'm very sleepy right now and can't remember why

I am watching Firefly right now,

and Mal/Inara reminds me of H/Hr...

at first glance, it might look like R/Hr because they fight. Mal sometimes calls Inara a wh0re (she's a companion), and she apparently doesn't take it as a strong insult. They seem to disagree with each other a lot when they are on screen together in the beginning of the episodes. However, we get glimpses between these scenes that show us that all is just a screen. In reality, Mal always takes her into consideration, and always wants to protect her, and she does the same for him.

Their relationship starts with that of "just business" because Mal is renting one of his space shuttles to her, but then evolves to friendship with attraction that can't be consummated because both parts don't want any types of "complications" - then, in the episode "Heart of Gold" you actually see how much this situation is affecting Inara, it's so much that she starts pushing Mal away.

Their fighting is all a red herring, and one should take notice of the subtle signs in their ship

Anyone agrees?

Amy

Ned/Moze from Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide

The episodes have been playing the Ned/Moze potential relationship a lot more now. They're a lot like H/Hr.

Miss Mady

I just watched The Notebook for the enth time and at first I thought I saw H/Hr but, I don't know I think Noah and Allie are more R/hr because they fight a lot... I don't know... sorry if my post does not make any sense, I think I'm just hugry..hehe

I don't know if you ever read the book, but Noah and Allie are way more like H/Hr in the book. Never fought, totally understood eachother, that sort of thing. You should give it a read if you haven't already, it's just as good as the movie, only Noah and Allie are a bit different around eachother. Definitely more H/Hr.

I agree. Have you ever noticed how much Disney and Nickelodeon are playing up the whole "Best Friend turned Romance" pairings? I mean, look at Zoey 101, Phil of the Future, Lizzie McGuire, Kim Possible, That's So Raven...the list goes on and on.

Hi. I don't usually post around here, but I've lurked for a while. I hope no one minds if I delurk.

-Sisko/Dax, DS9. I'm probably the only one who ever shipped them (or at least it seems that way). They were best friends and people often questioned whether there was something going on between them in the beginning. They were both attracted to each other (Sisko slept with an alternate universe Dax and Dax turned out to have a 'latent attraction' to Sisko in a romance-themed episode). However, the writers never went that way and instead decided to give Sisko a girlfriend who was vacuous but spunky and shared the hero's interest in sports. (cough)

-Alvin Maker/Peggy Larner, Alvin Maker series. Alvin is the hero of the series, a maker who has a 'knack' that lets him do pretty much whatever he wants, except he's too noble and good-hearted to use his powers for his own gain. Peggy is quite powerful in her own right (she is able to read people and sometimes predict the future) and has watched out for Alvin since she was a girl. Peggy fell in love with Alvin at an early age but was determined that he not stay with her out of obligation and spent a good deal of time pretending to be an older school teacher to see if he would fall in love with her as well. He did. Sidenote: the author flirts with putting Alvin together with someone who has a silly, school girl crush on him (Amy Sump). He doesn't, though. (Good on him!)

ITL

P.S. Thanks to whoever it was that suggested Danny and Sam from "Danny Phantom" were like H/Hr. I've become a "Danny Phantom" addict because of it.

First of all, welcome to Portkey! Hope you like it here!

And...


I agree. Danny/Sam is *so* H/Hr.

Miss Mady

I watched the what about brian season premiere (here in aus) last night and the brian, margery and Adam love triangle reminds me of the trio. However we have to harry to get him to wake up!

I think this one has already been put on here but just in case it hasn't....

The writers of "Monster House" are SO H/Hr shippers! The main character is so Harry and the little girl is so Hermione.... and I hate to sound bad about Ron but he is definatly the same as the sidekick, he's just matured enough not to do f@rt noises with his armpit, or perhaps he never learnt that trick?

Thanks for the advice! i'm sure I'll get around to reading it once I can get that book in my hands! hehe, thanks again!

Oh I know. I squee every single time I watch one of those shows. Best friends-turned-lovers really do work out.

Miss Mady

Ugh...I used to be all for the best friend turned romance relationship...until I dated my best friend. We're still trying to pick up the peices of that failed relationship.

Aww. I'm sorry.

Umm... on topic...
There are *a lot* of H/Hr type couples out there.

Miss Mady

I don't know why maybe because I have been watching the office non-stop since I rented it but Jim/Pam remind me SLIGHTLY of H/Hr.
Only because
1. Best friends
2. Roy=Ron (think about it office fans, hes in the way)
3. Harry reminds me a bit of Jim (if Harry didn't have Voldemort chasing after him so he could be more laid back.)
4. because if you watch the show you are most likely secretly in love with Jim just like if you read HP you are secretly (or not secretly) in love with Harry.
5. Because its like come on get together already!!!

I don't think you are going to believe this but what the heck.

Bambi reminds me of Harry and Hermione.

Bambi and the girl deer (Sorry, it's been ages since i watched it and i saw an advert on it during a dvd i was watching) - Bambi acts like Harry.

Thumper reminds me of Ron while the female rabbit reminds me of Luna (The way she gazes up at Thumper).

Kingdom hearts - Sora and Kairi. Sora and Harry just look too cute when confused. Kairi and Hermione are kind both know it all and jumps into to defends the men they like.

Out of the couples I know which would be about a third, none of them remind of Harry and Hermione. The friendship angle for some of them I guess but just because a couple is friends before doesn't make them that similar to H/Hr. Like when Harry met Sally (one of my favs) they are close friends like H/Hr but their friendship develops and is very different from H/Hr also they banter a lot which H/Hr don't really do. You should post why they remind you maybe you see something I didn't.

I know I've probably said it before... a million and a thousand times more!

Piper and Leo from Charmed.... seriously.

They were showing reruns of season6, but all of a sudden after BabyChris was born, they went back to Season1x01 - anyway... in episode 1x03, they sort of introduce Leo as the handyman, so they still have no idea of him being a Whitelighter.

ANYWAY, Phoebe (alyssa milano) and Piper (holly mary combs) start this little contest who could win Leo's attentions. Phoebe, likes him only because Piper does, but Piper really really does like him. around episode 1x12 there was a scene where Piper brings cookies and milk for Leo who's working in the house (awww, like hermione bringing toast!) - and Leo stains his top lip with milk, and Phoebe brushes that off with her finger, and says "that's Piper... you should consider her like your mother. I do." - LOL

The following scene, Piper brings Leo milk with a cinnamon bun (gosh, freshly baked bun!!!) - and tells him "here you go! Hope you enjoy it, just don't think of me as your mom" or something along those lines.... and it just reminds me of the many people telling me Hermione is like Harry's mom.

And today's rerun was "The True Spell" episode, and Piper asked Leo
"Do you ever think of me?"
"Yes..."
"In what way?"
"You have very beautiful eyes..."
"Oh, that's a very good way"

I'm getting obsessed with Piper and Leo once again haha.... gosh! I can't help it~

You're so right! I love, love, love Charmed , and was so very sad when it ended. And Phoebe could be considered a type of Ginny. To be honest I don't hate Ginny (le gasp!) I liked her in OotP a lot, HBP Ginny wasn't Ginny at all, just GinnySue so I chose the road of denial and continue to like OotP Ginny. Yes I'm kinda strange.

But Piper and Leo are very much like H/Hr. Just the way they understand each other and care for each other so much. I felt so bad for Piper when Leo became an Elder in that Goddess (can't remember the name) episode. And when Leo 'died'.

I could see Hermione bawling her eyes out if she thought Harry died in the final battle. I have a feeling the JKR would trick us into believing for a spilt-second that Harry really died. I don't think he will though.

The girl deer is named Faline.

Don't worry, I specifically said that I sorta wabted to spawn debates with my comment! I'm also interested in what other people think of these couples, so on with the arguments! And, I would love to spout how I feel about each pairing, but like I implied... that would take a lot of space and seeing as I have already written much about some of these couples in previous (and this one) of this topic! Those pairings include Trist/Sus, Har/Harm, Clar/Lan, Nath/Hail, Rob/Star... I'll probably post more about these couples later, but, again, i would like to see others opinions. But remeber, most of these pairs aren't EXACTLY like H/Hr, but in some way or another are very similar to either of the characters AND/OR have similar relationships!

Lucas and Peyton always makes me think of H/Hr because both Lucas and Peyton have a bond that can't break them apart and also how they understand each other. Lucas is always there to protect Peyton just like Harry is to Hermione and vice versa.

Jack and Kate from Lost also reminds me of H/Hr.

I know there are more but that's all I can think of for now.

There is another Sisco/Dax shipper out there? I thought I was the only one who saw it. I admit that I'm mostly an Odo/Kira and Worf/Dax shipper, but I've always liked the idea of Sisco/Dax. There is so much history there. I think that they are very much like Harry and Hermione.



Definately. Leo/Piper is my second favorite Charmed ship, and they are very much like H/Hr. My favorite, Cole/Phoebe is a cross between H/Hr and D/G, IMHO.

I like it.
However,that means we cannot see H/Hr in DH.That's horrible.


David/Agnes(? I'm not sure beacause I read the Chinese edition)in David Copperfield.

Mitsuru and Ryo from Ganbare! Shimura-san, a web-comic that has lots of the same stuff as Harry Potter. Mitsuru is the main character, has dark hair, completely oblivious about girls, he has a popular girlfriend/model *coughGINNY (minus the model part)cough*, etc. Ryo is his best girl friend and she likes him. She's smart too. Watanabe is their friend, and he's a bit like Ron. There's a character like Luna too. It's uncanny the similarities between HP and this comic. It's in progress, so we don't actually know if they're, FOR SURE, going to end up together.

Link to webcomic if any of you want to read it:
Ganbare! Shimura-san It's quite addicting, actually.

Miss Mady

Totally random, but Jolinar/Martouf from Stargate: SG1. In the episodes where you see each of them, though you never see them together, you can see that they had a beautiful friendship and relationship. The fallout of it is seen in the interactions between Martouf and Sam. He still has deep feelings for Jolinar that spill over into his feelings for Sam. He misses her deeply. He reminds me more of Hermione, and her of Harry.

Well... actually Chloe/Clark reminds me more of Harry/Hermione than Lana/Clark... actually Lana/Clark remind me more of Ginny/Harry (just, the other way). Ginny has always had a crush on Harry, just like Clark on Lana. And even if they understand each other very well (sometimes), Lana is no Chloe. Clark trust Chloe with his secret (aham... Prophecy on Harry's case) and whenever he needs help, inmediately rushes to Chloe for help (Harry running to Hermione in the Triwizard Tournament to help him with the Accio spell, just for saying one).

Of course, Chloe has always had this crush on Clark, and in my mind, I believe Hermione does as well.

So, my point is, Chloe and Clark are best friends, just like Harry and Hermione, and have always had this relationship which works really well (except when she's not trying to investigate him for Lionel), they are a great team.

And in the sixth season (I can't remember the name of the episode) where Clark has been infected and starts allucinating about him being crazy and not really being Kal-El, and how only Chloe believed him. While I was watching that episode, I couldn't but think that if it was Harry's case, she would be the only one to believe him as well.
At the end of HBP, Harry says that being with Ginny was like living some one else's life, like "normal". In this episode, they offered Clark to take his powers, so he could have a normal life, with Lana.

Aaaaaand... how in this Twilight Zone, Chloe gets shot and dies... so Hermione on DoM (well, she didn't die, but Harry tought she had)



Sorry, but I'm such a big Smallville fan, specially Clark/Chloe fan, mostly because they remind me of HHr

hmmmm... true, true... the illusion to that episode -BTW, the title is "Labrynth"! - does make a lot of sense, your right... still though, I really hate the actress who plays Chole, and find that shes mooning over Clark way too often, which reminds me of Ginny way too much. Plus, I don't think the fact alone that any pairing behind best friends alone states them as like H/Hr! But I see what you mean.
Still, the whole Chole vs. Lana debate of who represents Hermione is totally depended on how you view each of Hermione's, Ginny's, Lana's, AND Chloe's characters.

You say Chloe is trusted with Clark's secret BUT remeber that he did not actually tell her until six years of the series (and almost an entire life friendship!) now, I know she found out beforehand, but he still did not physically let her in, even after 1) She had witnessed his powers sometimes in his presence (incidents were wiped from her memory... she trusted him, so why didn't he remind her and tell her then?
2) Throughout the second half of of season five, when she knew he was different, and gave him very cryptic hints and offers for him to tell her, he STILL did not confide in her.
Much like, in HBP, how he told Hermione and Ron everything that happened throughout the year, and Ginny, who HE WAS DATING was not even given an explanation to why he was leaving for the horcrux, or was even told that he had left. There is no proof he even hinted to her what he and Dumbledore had been up to the enitre year... Dumbledore, yes, told him only to tell Hr and Ron, but I doubt he would have ever filled Ginny in... maybe cause he couldn't TRUST her.
Which brings us back to Chole. Clark could never really trust her until she had grown up a little, learned from her mistakes, ect... (aka. her meddling, tampering and snooping into his private life to get a story... her inner reporter!) Clark basically only finally confesed because he was caught redhanded (or should I say 'icecovered'!)

Now Lana, she, especially in latest episodes, nows something is up with Clark, not only walks straight up to him and confronts him (like Hermione in OotP during christmas... while everyone else hid from Harry), she also uses the resources she has to find out whats up and/or how to help him (much like Hermione uses her books)

And you say that clark has a crush on Lana just as Chloe has a crush on him... one mistake there: Clark LOVES Lana, as does Lana him. Chloe's crush, to me seems like nothing but the puppy love between Ginny and Harry (Clark himself has mentioned he did CONSIDER a relationship with her in the past...) But Clark and Lana have admittidly still love each other, no matter how rocky they're relationship gets, OR how they're seeing. And many people could see the Harmony aspect of this... how Hermione has always loved Harry, and either ignored her feelings, or let him be with others for his own happiness...

Anyway... I don't think that this argument between Chloe vs. Lana/Ginny vs. Hermione is even close to over... this is just my opinions... any more to jump on in?

MarauderByMoonlight I agree with everything that you said. *bows*



The only person Clark ever really told his secret to on the show was his best friend Pete, who ended up moving away because he couldn't handle it. Chloe found out about his abilities first, THEN he told her the rest, but only because he really had no choice. The whole point of his secret is that no one is supposed to know, because let's face it: finding out your friend/boyfriend/whatever is an alien is lot to handle for anyone. And like I said (I think a few pages back) Clark *did* tell Lana his secret. I don't want to spoil that episode (it was last season) for anyone who didn't see it, but Lana did accept him and still loved him. Of course, she doesn't remember any of this because of the stupid memory whipe thing this show seems to love to do . Like MarauderByMoonlight said, they DID love eachother. It wasn't a little crush, at least I don't think so, and it really comes down to how you compare certain characters on the show to certain characters in the book. Of course, I can see Chloe/Clark as H/H too. Definitely. But I can ALSO see Clark/Lana. I guess it comes down to preferance.

Wow, Smallville certainly has a lot to be debated about doens't it?

Sure does! by the way, it wasn't a mind wipe... that time! lol He turned back time, so basically it "technically" didn't happen! And pete also was told because he found Clarks spaceship... its not like he woke up one day and said, "Well, I guess id better tell pete im an alien!!!"

But OT... WHERE... DID YOU GET THAT AVATAR!!!!!!!!!!!! AHAHAHAHAH!!! I WANT IT!!!!

Hehe, it is pretty perfect isn't it? I got it at FanForum...somewhere. There's so many talented people there, literally all you have to do is start clicking and you're bound to find something.

Oh and you're right about the memory whipe vs. time reversal thing. Either way she forgot, which I'm still mad about.

I guess that my love for the ship (Chlark) really has a lot to do with the fact that I see HHr-like in there.

I don't know, I guess it's just that I don't like Lana very much, and that's why I don't WANT to see the HHr-like there... I read what you guys wrote, and you're right!
Is not that I don't like Lana... I just prefer Chloe!



If we talk about smallville in here, we may never be able to finish... anyway the point is Harry/Hermione rocks!

The way I see it, Clark/Lana is a little like H/G and Clark/Cloe is a little like H/Hr but neither is really like any HP ship.

In the end, in the Superman canon, it really comes down to Clark/Lois. I don't much like any other Superman ship, and they remind me a lot of H/Hr. Their friendship is deeper than the one between Clark and Cloe. He's wants to tell her his secret. He's planning to even though she finds out first. They share a bond that's similar to the one between Harry and Hermione.

I don't much like the way that Smallville portrays either Lois or the way her beginning interactions with Clark. Putting aside the fact that it is ridiculous for them to have them meet when they are young, their early interactions are all wrong. They may have argued a little, but there was a connection even then.

I think Clark/Chloe is more H/Hr than Clark/Lana - why? Teamwork. When did Clark and Lana ever do some mystery solving? Never, whereas Clark and Chloe, um, every episode. Isn't this exactly like H/Hr, how Harry and Hermione always solve things together?

Oh, and there's also the fact that Lex/Lana = Draco/Ginny. Girl gets ditched by the Hero, girl goes to Hero's enemy (well, soon to be enemy). Sounds like Draco/Ginny and Lex/Lana, doesn't it? So yeah, Clark/Chloe + Lex/Lana = Harry/Hermione + Draco/Ginny.

Dice, that's exactly what I meant! How Harry and Hermione have a great interaction as friends and as a team, I guess that's what I like about them.

I can picture Harry asking Hermione to look for this or that information about this or that to help him with the Horcruxes, just like Clark with Chloe.

I just figured this out, perhaps someone did before, if so I'm sorry, my mistake.

Harry is "the boy who lived" the boy of the "Prophecy"
Neo is " the chosen one" the man of the Prophecy.
Same thing, huh?
How about Neo and Trinity's love? In Matrix, their love is really powerful, it actually saved both of their lives twice I think (not really an expert of the series), could it be the same for Harry and um...Hermione?Anyone?
Just saying, correct me if I'm wrong I might be

I've always thought Hermione is the one who's gonna help Harry in the end... you know, all the whole "Love" thing...

It's been said here before, no one has ever said "I love you" to Harry.. at least, not that he remembers (Obviously his parents must've told him). I've always believed it's gonna be Hermione the one who tells him "I love you" for the first time. And, considering how the love is the power that's gonna help him fight Voldemort, it would mean a lot more than just the fact of actually her just saying it.

Honestly, if JKR decides Ginny's gonna be the one that tells Harry "I love you" I'll just kill myself and stain my book with the blood of my wrist and then throw it out of the window... I don't care if H/Hr are not together or if either of them die... or if they both die... or if it's Hr/R of if Voldemort and Lucius start snogging and have tons of little DeathVoldies Malfoys... as long as Ginny's not the one who says it. HOW ******* COULD SHE ******* LOVE HIM? Yeaah.. love is just something that grows as a chest monster in a few months and a couple of weeks snogging in the lake... whathever. What example would that be for kids who read the books?
I would like to think that love grows out of years of sharing and helping each other and it's based on more than physical.


But that was a little off topic... well, a lot...

So.. I say yes... I think Hermione's love is gonna help Harry and a lot.

Neo and Harry draw a parallel because both stories follow The Hero's Journey. You can read all about it in the book The Hero With a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell.

You can also draw parallels between Harry and Luke Skywalker.... as well as Anakin Skywalker. Even Frodo Baggins from LotR.

YES! Awesome! Actually, Neville, to a lesser degree, follows it also.

There are a lot of parallels to draw; we even get down to the fact that Love saves Neo at the end of the first movie. Ah, the wonderful death-and-resurrection plot devices...